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  • #21
I have a question.........how can this happen in a NATIONAL FOREST PRESERVE?
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Up here if you touch a lowly pine tree in the Adirondack Park you get fines up the rear! Is it just that there is no guidance nor care at this facility? I mean cmon, someone must know something about how unqiue and rare these plants are.
 
  • #22
Thats why there in a preserve. All over the world, national parks and nature preserves are favord haunts for pochers because they have often wiped out the target species everywhere else. Like in africa with rinos, south america with parrots, and indonesia with rare orcids
 
  • #23
Buster,
One way to deter poachers to is make what they are poaching so plentiful and cheap that their is no market for their efforts. The NASC could make sure that every collector or hobbist could get their hands on red tubes for a couple of dollars. Having said that I also know that flavas are notoriously difficult if not impossible to TC. I think science will find a way in time. But, if the NASC's members had said plants, selfed them and, could distribute the seeds among members for growing, in a few short years we could flood the market with red tubes. The European market is all together a different story. That is up to folks like Mike King to help on that end. Just a thought in support of the NASC.
 
  • #24
......and a very good thought at that! I plan on doing the same thing with the Brazillian Drosera species: flood the market so that anyone who wants them can have them for free or close to it. Rarity is what feeds profit motivation. Make them as common as S. purpurea var purpurea and you are killing the black market. The key is in sharing, reproducing and continuing the cycle in an exponential increase. BElieve me, I have watched material I have introduced spread like wildfire all over the world in just a couple of years! This will certainly work with Sarracenia as well.
 
  • #25
So, if I understand correctly, this would be a process that would take several years and restocking plants in the wild is a temporary fix until the profit in poached plants doesn't make it worthwhile anymore. That sounds like a good idea. Now my next question...what about habitat loss. I know that is not a major concern in the national forests like Apalachicola, but in the rest of the state they seem to be draing land and slapping up subdivisions faster than you can count them. How do we save the wild populations?
 
  • #26
SAve wild populations? Obtian permission from the landowner and dig!
 
  • #27
Or buy the land...but the money must come from somewhere.
 
  • #28
It is important to maintain the wild stands as they are, genetically intact. What the NACS is doing in theroy is like a botanical zoo, saving  samples of species for all time in the case that the wild stands are decimated. Some wild stands will be wiped out. That can be another objective of the NASC is to raise awareness and promote conservation. Progress is moving at a much faster rate than we will be able to get the word out. So what is proposed now is to collect and collect quickly(with permission). Later when when have a protocol in place, and IF the native stands are wiped out completely the NASC can find suitable habitats and with the plants we have saved we can reintroduced to areas where they once grew insuring that the same or close to the same genectic material is reintroduced. In conservatation practices, as I understand it, this is the last resort. The order of importance as I see it is: 1) get the formalities out of the way. 2) Amass the collection. 3) Start a distribution program either through the ICPS or the NASC. I am aware it is more complicated than that but for the sake of dicsussion.

And, just in case anyone was wondering, I am still obsessed.
 
  • #29
Okay, I have talked to ABG and they have an individual heading to check the site who is very familiar with the area. I will post here whatever they find and we can go from there.

I have also made this a topic on the listserv and have recieved a number of emails on it. Unfortunatly they do not clear the issue up any but they do seem to confirm the observations that something might be happening at the site. However it is a good possibility that it is strictly due to the drought in the region.
 
  • #30
I was reading the listserve over the week and they seem to be indicating that it probably is drought. So stave the excitement, folks, until we get the final word.
smile_m_32.gif

Not that it's not sad at any rate. That is one place I had hoped to visit, and if the plants are indeed dead(rather than some kind of Summer dormancy), then it will take Nature a looong time to replace the damage.

Cheers,

Joe
 
  • #31
I was just thinking on this and while I doubt anyone would be dumb enough to act this way I want to make a post here letting everyone know that while talk of wanting to do something to re-establish the population is fine ABSOLUTELY NO ONE should take it upon themselves to go to this site and attempt to harvest any remaining plants or seeds. If this site has been compromised then it should be left for organized groups with pre-existing programs to look into restoring the site and any individuals who might go and harvest material or seed with the best of intentions would only screw the situation up more.
 
  • #32
Well said Pyro. Yes, collection at this stage of things is essential, but it MUST be left to those who have the expertise to assess the situation. We can't have an army of collectors destroying what is left in the name of preserving them. It is NOT ok to go dig up any wild Sarracenia no matter how plentiful they may seem. Careful collections will be made, and the material will then be reproduced in sufficient quantity to meet all the desires of growers, but it will take time and patience on everyones part if this is to be successful. Now, in their darkest hour more than ever, a hands off policy is mandatory.
 
  • #33
This goes back to my question several pages ago about wild populations of plants. Are we talking about collecting small amounts of material (seeds, division, the occasional stray plant) or as one person implied going in and digging everything up? I have a problem with both, but I can see the 1st as a necessary evil to get specific genetic material, I see the 2nd as a public relations nightmare.

Even though we lost the war of northern aggression (joke!), I think you would find most people here very upset if “out-of-staters” came by the van-loads and cleared out vast stands of plants “for our own good to save them”, even if they were on privately owned land and it was legal. Also, herds of well-intentioned people tramping through the wetland to save pitcher plants will probably cause irreparable damage to the other plants around and the habitat itself.

Will there be any safeguards (besides stern warnings) to caution the overzealous from taking this to the extreme and “saving” every plant they come across no matter where it is? I keep seeing newspaper articles about individuals who have “saved” plants from development sites which I equate with now being part of their private collection, since no mention is made of relocation plans.

Sorry about the length, but we are in the height of tourist season and I feel the need to complain about everything– since Saturday I have seen 4 dead Sandhill cranes and 1 dead alligator – these are not small animals that you might not see and accidentally run down. This happens every year at this time. Its like come to Florida and rack up points by killing the local wildlife. The stuff in the marijuana debate is longer than this anyway. Oh, by the way those were actually legitimate questions that I was wondering about.
 
  • #34
Buster,

I agree with all your feelings. It is pathetic that we have been reduced to the necessary evil of collection in the name of preservation.

There are no safeguards. There will never be any. The real loss doesn't stem from individuals, it comes from special interests that want the land, and they will have it.

I used to be firmly against any collection of wild CP, other than once - for introduction into cultivation. Now, I favor sensitive collection by those who have lived with and studied the plants for all their lives. A last ditch attempt at preserving something from an evaporating gene pool is now called for.

Reintroduction may or may not be a feasible plan, but only experts familiar with the populations can make that assessment. Done in the wrong way, it can be as destructive as collection as far as maintaining diversity goes.

It's a no win situation I am afriad, but that doesn't make it OK to go and grab whatever, not even if it is with permission.

The whole thing just sickens and depresses me. There are no answers, and no right way! If we don't collect, it will all be lost in the blink of an eye. Millions of years of evolution and beauty wasted in the name of consumerism. What Big Business doesn't take, bog raping waste 's of skin will take and sell off for a profit, evidenced by the recent redtube theft. Naturally, the material taken will not be sold with collection data attached, and so even the genetic import is lost now on those plants! This is why we MUST make a National COllection now, while there is time, but it must be through informed, educated and experienced agents that will act with sensitivity and restraint. Once we have done that, all we can do is watch, and hopefully something will remain 50 years from now. But even if not, we need to let them die in peace, and not hasten their demise.

It makes me cry.
 
  • #35
This makes me more mad than anything because we are lke a big man with a stick who can't use it against the attack of a rabid dog.
 
  • #36
I just recieved this message from the ABG. It is from a contact they have in the area. I also recieved a message from Jim saying he might be confused about the location of the site he was looking at and that it might not be the real one we are all concerned about. Jim will be checking this weekend based on conversations with a couple other people.

As it stands the main site is still intact so again I emphasize that NO ONE should even think of going down and collecting material in the interest of saving the site. To do so would make you the poacher.

So in this case Dustin we might have been a big man with a stick but if we had indeed swung we would have found ourselves beating the seeing eye dog of a blind man and not the rabid dog we all feared.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I'm not sure if this is the "big site" in Sumatra about  XXX yards north of the
tower on the East side of Hwy XXX.  At this particular site there is no ditch
to cross to get to the plants.   i was down there 3 weeks ago and saw
well over a thousand plants (all RTF) - enough that two dumptrucks could not have
carried them away.   i'll be going back down in 2 weeks, so I can check the
site out again.  i get down there about 4 times a year (for the past 6 years)
and I have yet to see one incidence of poaching in all this time at approximately
7-8 flava sites that I visit; however, there are anecdotal reports of apparent dig
holes observed over the years.  I think (hope) there may be some confusion about
site location - either on my part or Jim's.  

I'm not sure if Jim is referring to another smaller red tube site in this area that
I am not aware of - but generally all variants of RTF are present at approximately
4 sites for this variety that i know about.  Feel free to forward this email.
 
  • #37
Posted on the list serv today:

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Okay gang,

Official this time: The site is there and looking good. We had some miscommunication about which site we were discussing, but I just got back from the area (I had some wonderful company on the trip, as Jay Lechtman was down from Virginia).

No evidence of poaching there, though the first flava spot on highway 379 (the cypress stand population) definitely had fewer red tubes than say, 1995 or so. The Pinguicula spot (one of my favorites), which had only stunted P. planifolia and NO ionantha in late May now has about two feet of water and there are thousands of ionantha and planifolia, often growing side-by-side. They have not reached the size of the specimens I saw last September (one ionantha measured over seven inches across), but they are taking off. If anything, there are more plants than last year. It's amazing to see how resilient these plants are if we will just give them the chance to survive. We also found P. primuliflora in the Forest for the first time. How cool is that?

Wrapping up, we saw some of the most amazing flava x purpurea hybrids and backcrosses. Jay was quite thrilled to see them and get some (hopefully) great digital photos to share. I shot another hour of video and I think I have some amazing footage for the next DVD. However, the original plan might change. I have so much great footage with the new camera shot here in the Florida panhandle, that I might limit the second DVD to just those areas. But I'm sure Jay will tell you, the footage will absolutely blow you away!!

Best regards to all (and glad we cleared up the red tube issue),
Jim

So now everything is good
 
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