What's new
TerraForums Venus Flytrap, Nepenthes, Drosera and more talk

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Wild collected Nep seed purchase discussions

  • #21
I ordered seeds from albermarelsounds on reccomendation from a TF member who had great germination. I don't believe any of the species of the 5 I ordered were even rare. I've seen all of them for sale commonly in stores and on eBay. I don't support poaching in any way and I didn't know the seeds I ordered were poached at the time I ordered them, but in all honesty, I don't think a gymnamphora, glabrata or tentaculata is going to become threatened any time soon. By selling the seeds on eBay to people who will closely monitor them to make sure they get as high of a germination rate as possible, it may actually be helping the species in general, not in the wild. If something were to happen to where the population declined, there would be thousands and thousands in captivity to help preserve the species. They aren't going anywhere with all these hobbyists. Also, neps are like weeds when given optimal conditions. When given those conditions, they will flower and create thousands of seeds. Not all will survive, but I think a lot more seeds are being produced than poached. The market for nep seeds is so specific that there would be no reason to collect lots of seed pods, because not that many will sell.

That being said, collecting seeds from the finicky species that may even die often in the wild, or species that don't breed as much, or species that are very scarcely found is probably a bad idea. If I see seeds from a species I've never heard of on ebay, or a species that is technically "rare", I wouldn't buy it to boycott the collection of those. Maybe even report the item to eBay as a rare species being illegally collected and sold.
If you guys are really concerned about some species becoming extinct, you could always start some conservation groups to boycott the sale and prevent the collection of the uncommon species.

Just my thoughts and opinions. :)
 
  • #22
my two cents....

if one were able to obtain breeding pairs of pure species raised from seed, there is absolutely no reason to continue harvesting from wild populations. i think any concerned CP hobbyist worth his or her salt would strive towards any possible means to conserve wild populations by creating a sustainable source of plants.

TC is obviously the best quick fix to this problem as we are able to take desirable individual plants, clone them at exponential rates and distribute them to CP enthusiasts. however, this is not the long term fix of saving wild populations--the reason being, at the discretion or by freak accidents, stock cultures of Neps are either discontinued or are contaminated, and are lost to cultivation. for example, if we were to lose the only N. splendidiana clone in cultivation or the 4 clones of N. rajah---how would these plants be accessible again? by returning back to wild populations....

this is why i believe it is absolutely necessary for redundant backups in the form of seed grown breeding pairs of Nepenthes species. the would 1) add to the present genetic pool available from TC clones and 2) be a possible continuous source of Nepenthes seed, some of which can be TC'ed and the whole process can start all over again, starting a positive feedback loop. here, not only could wild populations be relieved of human pressure, but they could even be replenished from cultivated stock. sounds like a great idea doesnt it? however, this idea requires the cooperation of the majority of CP growers working together as each grower trying to accomplish this goal on his/her own would hurt wild populations even more.

personally, i would love to see a primary source of Nepenthes within the United States. Im tired of sending my money overseas. :p Why should Australia, Sri Lanka, Germany, and the Czech Republic have all the fun? ;) also, i dont know how vendors would take that plan though, as it can exponentially reduce the price value of certain species...

you think Neps are a hoot....wait until you hear the stories behind heliamphora. :lol:

PS: @ColdCoffee: the seed grown dubia plants that you see floating around did not come from a private grower---they actually came from a well known Nepenthes primary distributor, Borneo Exotics which recently released a batch of them about 2 years ago. Borneo Exotics is presently one of those legitimate sources which do possess the proper paper work to harvest seed from wild populations.
 
Last edited:
  • #24
1. Were the Nepenthes seeds harvested legally?
Maybe, depends on the country. It may be legal to collect but not legal to export. However, given the amount of seeds collected and sold...there ain't many left in the wild to keep the generations of plants going. So the collectors are not responsible people to begin with. But it is up the relevant authorities to stop them from exporting.

2. Were the Nepenthes seeds imported into U.S.A. legally?
Maybe, depends on the importer. Seeds sent to the States using the seeds import permit should be just seeds. No petal, no fruit, no sepal and no debris. And each species of seeds must not exceed 50. Take a look at the pics posted by dionae. Obviously, the seeds together with the fruits were never checked by the relevant authorities.

Buying large quantities of seeds, of whatever species available only shows the lack of experience and expertise of the buyer in germinating the genus of plants. Nepenthes seeds need to be sufficiently mature and ripe before they can germinate. They also need to be stored properly to maximize germination rates. Mail is irradiated and a good number of the seeds do not survive the process. In the end, the buyer is paying very little for very little useful seeds. Or if the mail somehow avoids being irradiated, then the grower will have 500-1000 seeds and in turn several hundreds of seedlings. What's the point of having hundreds of mini maxima seedlings? The grower either conveniently allow most to die, rather than passing them on to other growers because the form or species is rare or uncommon.

All these have been going on for years. Sigh...
 
  • #26
I do agree that there need to be some more US nurseries that try to produce their own rare plants instead of just importing from BE and others. Since so many people seem to be picking up on the Nepenthes hobby in the US.

I also hope that once the tiny little TC plants that everybody has grow up, there will be a flood of the seed of rare species. I hope.

I do like Nepenthes quite a bit, but have no personal interest in growing from seed, or having seed grown plants. I grow these plants for my own personal enjoyment and do not consider my collection to be any kind of "ark". I would much rather spend half the money and half the time on a TC clone if I am going to enjoy it just as much as a seedgrown.
 
  • #27
What's the point of having hundreds of mini maxima seedlings? The grower either conveniently allow most to die, rather than passing them on to other growers because the form or species is rare or uncommon.
So, one of your issues is that I might have extra seedlings that i'll kill instead of giving them away?!? You dont know me too well then. I have hundreds of "extra" sarracenia seedlings but I havent killed them or given them away and I wouldnt senselessly kill any extra nepenthes seed. I wouldnt think any grower would want any of my poached seedlings anyway.
 
  • #28
@dionae: I don't think Cindy was singling you out. Remember that she's been in this hobby way longer than the both of us, possibly even combined. She was just speaking from her own experience, and she's witnessed this event many times in the past.
 
  • #30
2. Were the Nepenthes seeds imported into U.S.A. legally?
Maybe, depends on the importer. Seeds sent to the States using the seeds import permit should be just seeds. No petal, no fruit, no sepal and no debris. And each species of seeds must not exceed 50. Take a look at the pics posted by dionae. Obviously, the seeds together with the fruits were never checked by the relevant authorities.

Since I'm preparing an article on Importing Plants and Seeds to the United States I'll add my two cents:

The Small Seed Lot program for importing seed into the US does not require a phytosanitary certificate from the exporter. The shipments must be 50 or less taxa and 50 or less seeds or grams of any one taxon. They must be free of all non-seed matter. Tuber and gemmae are not seed. Small Seed Lots require Permit PPQ 587.

Anything else requires a phytosanitary certificate, this includes plants, seeds, cuttings, tubers, gemmae, plant parts, pollen, and plants in-vitro in sterile media. Shipments of lots of 13 or more also require PPQ 587.

All shipments by mail with or without Permit 587 must be shipped to one of the 17 Animal and Plant Health Inspection/Plant Protection Quarantine stations. Anything that passes inspection will be forwarded to the importer.

Shipments arriving by freight or unaccompanied baggage require a customs broker to meet with APHIS/PPQ inspectors.

Failure to comply with any of these regulations is in violation of Code of Federal Regulations and United States Codes Title 7 (Agriculture) and/or Title 19 (Customs and Duty). Maximum fine for individuals is $250,000 and/or a maximum of 10 years imprisonment.
 
  • #32
Dang, this discussion really took off!
 
  • #34
Well this same topic gets discussed it seems like every year or so at least once. I do feel it's really important to continue talking about and debating.

The two sides are essentially:

A.) Supporting the purchase of wild collected seed by responsible growers so that a greater amount of genetic material is circulating in cultivation.

B.) Buying only from reputable nurseries who have done everything completely legally and already germinated the plants for us.

It's a good debate to continue having because as the years go by more and more amateur and beginning growers join the hobby. This is great because I love that our community continues to grow, but at the same time it's easier to log onto ebay than it is to be confronted with this discussion.

I think Not a Number's post is particularly pertinent and informative. One may be as passionate as they want in one direction or the other, but nothing like the heavy hand of the law truly dissuades people from making more decisions.

I'm no saint either. Looking back on it I have purchased seed-grown N. glabrata before, two of them. I didn't ask questions about how they were seed-grown, from which seed? The fact is, they probably originated from wild collected seed. It's unfortunate but true...

Which is why my collection is full of various hybrids and TC plants. It's not the way I would dream it but... oh well! I sleep well at night.
 
  • #35
@dex: why couldn't it be both? Why couldn't vendors buy wild collected seed? They obviously would be far more qualified since they deal with mass quality of plants daily. They'd just need to start up a tc facility. ;)
 
  • #36
@dex: why couldn't it be both? Why couldn't vendors buy wild collected seed? They obviously would be far more qualified since they deal with mass quality of plants daily. They'd just need to start up a tc facility. ;)

Well ultimately it has to be a mixture of both, thus you have Borneo Exotics and Andreas Wistuba. That is essentially all they are doing.

But it's a matter of where does the seed come from? Is it legal, ethical, everything else.

I agree though that there should be a North American Nursery on the same scale as EP and BE, but the problem with that is the cost. There are few places in the U.S. that can really grow Nepenthes as well as in Sri Lanka or Australia. There'd be needed expenses for heat and or cooling..
 
  • #38
Some of the Hawaiin growers, i.e., Sam Estes, grow beautiful plants outdoors.
 
  • #39
Some of the Hawaiin growers, i.e., Sam Estes, grow beautiful plants outdoors.

This is very true. But if I'm not mistaken hasn't even he had problems with some of the more demanding highlanders? or lowlanders, I can't remember which?
 
  • #40
Major problem with the US and Canada, too hot for highlanders in summer and too cold for lowlanders in winter. Maybe some nurseries could try the double nursery technique like BE does.
 
Back
Top