Primitive carnivory analyzed

[FrankenSnyder]

@hcarlton, believe it or not, my monkey flower has already passed the carnivory test by dissolving gelatin. All sticky trap CPs likely began the same way. None make use of bacteria to aide digestion as do pitcher plants. I believe colonizing ants were involved in pitcher plant evolution and that in the past they were Ant Plants…

@Lechinaultia, Thanks for your input. Do test as @bluemax suggests. Be careful not to “drool” Lindernia species share the same chromosome numbers 18 and 32 with Byblis. Both being Scrophularialles, the plants have a common ancestor. Thus, your KSV reliably shows how Byblis started out.

 

[hcarlton]

Reading back through the thread, seeing that there was mentioned evidence of increased growth after feeding (and it cannot be connected to any other factor?) as well as reactive response to application of things on the leaves, I might be swayed to paracarnivory in an accidental mechanism, but frankly gelatin isn't a good one to use to show true carnivory. Exposed to water above 70 degrees Fahrenheit it will begin to dissolve on its own. The egg whites mentioned would be a better show of some sort of actual digestion, otherwise the reaction that follows isn't actually that different from spraying a tomato's leaves with fertilizer.
Also evidence for most pitcher plants does not lean toward an "ant plant" theory that I've yet seen or read in publications, rather a folding of sticky leaves from a potentially already carnivorous ancestor (Nepenthes ex. sharing traits also ancestral to Triphyophyllum and Drosera; something similar seen in development from the Lentibulariaceae ancestors though in a different direction) or curling or more complex fusing of leaf parts (Sarraceniaceae the former, Cephalotus the latter, there was a paper on the latter in the CPN not long ago covering the process) that may have started as water or debris collection and turned to something else, much as bromeliads do. Brocchinia might demonstrate the next step, before developing more specialized characteristics after that.

 

[Lechenaultia]

I like the idea of drawing off any pooling fluid and applying that to egg white to see if it breaks down. 'A simple way to determine if it attacks protein without needing chemical analysis. It might be useful to do a control with pure water also applied to egg white.

@Lechinaultia, Thanks for your input. Do test as @bluemax suggests. Be careful not to “drool” Lindernia species share the same chromosome numbers 18 and 32 with Byblis. Both being Scrophularialles, the plants have a common ancestor. Thus, your KSV reliably shows how Byblis started out.

Dear bluemax-san, Dear FrankenSnyder-san,

Konnichiwa!

Thank you very much for your reply.
The water used for the control should be pH neutral or should be the same as the KSV pooling fluid?
The pH meter that I used to use for hydroponics can measure the acidity of a small amount (0.1 ml) of liquid with considerable accuracy. I think it can be measured by collecting the KSV pooling fluid from some directed guttation spots.

Be careful not to “drool”

Kind regards from the Far East

 

[bluemax]

Dear bluemax-san, Dear FrankenSnyder-san,

Konnichiwa!

Thank you very much for your reply.
The water used for the control should be pH neutral or should be the same as the KSV pooling fluid?
The pH meter that I used to use for hydroponics can measure the acidity of a small amount (0.1 ml) of liquid with considerable accuracy. I think it can be measured by collecting the KSV pooling fluid from some directed guttation spots.




Kind regards from the Far East

Thank you for responding to my suggestions. I think it would be best to use pH neutral water for the control, being as we might expect to see greater acidity in a digestive fluid. Or maybe not? Your pH meter sounds like a very useful thing.

 

[hcarlton]

Would be dependent on where the enzymes are most active, but usually acidic fluids are the most proper for them. If you want a direct comparison, pH needs to be the same between both.

 

[Lechenaultia]

Thank you for responding to my suggestions. I think it would be best to use pH neutral water for the control, being as we might expect to see greater acidity in a digestive fluid. Or maybe not? Your pH meter sounds like a very useful thing.

Dear bluemax-san, Dear FrankenSnyder-san,

Konnichiwa!

I'm sorry if I made mistakes in using technical terms.
If the enzyme was present,
In addition to the expected enzyme, I thought that KSV might release substances for pH regulation / control / adjustment to accelerate the reaction of that enzyme.
I wondered if acid-induced protein denaturation, such as hydrolysis, should be subtracted from changes in egg white by the overall KSV pooling fluid.

Please take a look around 3 minutes and 7 seconds. A drop of 0.1 ml is the lower limit of the sample. I have been using it for over 30 years since before I became a farmer/nursery-man. The first generation was a card type, but soon it became almost the same shape as it is now. I bought a new model from time to time.
It just so happens that now I only have pH meters like you see in the lab, but I'll get it again because it's convenient to use in greenhouse. I think it is a convenient measuring instrument for field researchers.
In addition to pH, there are several types such as electrical conductivity meters.

Kind regards from the Far East

 

[FrankenSnyder]

Reading back through the thread, seeing that there was mentioned evidence of increased growth after feeding (and it cannot be connected to any other factor?) as well as reactive response to application of things on the leaves, I might be swayed to paracarnivory in an accidental mechanism...

@hcarlton, okay, I can accept that. I ran numerous tests and controls. Monkey Flower Mimulus tillingii forms only random guttation pools (undirected guttation). M. nasutus directs guttation onto captured animals and their dung (not on inert substances such as dirt). We could call M. tillingii Accidental Coprophagous and call M. nasutus accidental Primitive Carnivorous / genuinely Coprophagous. What do you think @bluemax?

@Lechenaultia, I put gelatin and egg whites on the leaves. Controls in cups with water and also in guttation pools of nonCPs. You will figure it out. Test Byblis too and compare if you can, and please keep us posted. I think KSV is quite closely related to Byblis. Note single flowered stalks and Byblis leaves are like leafless long petioles of KSV. B. liniflora and KSV have 32 chromosomes.

 

[bluemax]

@hcarlton, okay, I can accept that. I ran numerous tests and controls. Monkey Flower Mimulus tillingii forms only random guttation pools (undirected guttation). M. nasutus directs guttation onto captured animals and their dung (not on inert substances such as dirt). We could call M. tillingii Accidental Coprophagous and call M. nasutus accidental Primitive Carnivorous / genuinely Coprophagous. What do you think @bluemax?

Those sound like solid assertions, based on your experiments. Perhaps further research by those who have the means to test for specific digestive substances could lead to an even higher level of proven carnivory.

Lechenaultia - That's some pretty sweet technology!

 

[FrankenSnyder]

Thanks @bluemax. I just read this article on CP evolution:

How Carnivorous Plants Evolved

Botanists are beginning to trace the origins of their gruesome appetites

www.smithsonianmag.com

 

[FrankenSnyder]

Last night I placed two fruitfly heads on the leaves of this monkey flower originally collected by Frank Obregon. I checked about an hour later and saw dew forming around the heads. Photo shot this morning.

I have also attached a photo of my Drosera capillaris seedlings, unfed, showing excessive dew on two leaves (center and 10 o’clock plants). The dew is from minute sessile transpiration glands. Comparing secretion by these plant types convinces me carnivory in Drosera and Pinguicula began as directed guttation.

 

[bluemax]

'Cool observations and photos. The question of how carnivory in plants arises is one of the basic mysteries for those of us who are growers.

 

[Sarracenia67]

My Erythranthe guttata grows similarly as a seedling, but drops the glands on the leaves as it grows. Starts looking like Drosera schizandra. Apparently it is a well documented adaptation to herbivory. It did catch a few gnats, but nothing else.

Have you all tried doing the gelatin film tests to check for protease?

 

[FrankenSnyder]

My Erythranthe guttata grows similarly as a seedling, but drops the glands on the leaves as it grows. Starts looking like Drosera schizandra. Apparently it is a well documented adaptation to herbivory. It did catch a few gnats, but nothing else.

Have you all tried doing the gelatin film tests to check for protease?

Thanks, happy to hear of your research. You ought to check for directed guttation too as @Lechenaultia and I have done. Gelatin tests may seem positive, but prove actually due to bacterial digestion. The foreign catchfly Silene galica directs guttation but I have not tested with gelatin. Monkey Flowers are highly variable. That Carnivorous Catchfly species is likewise reportedly variable, in dewiness. So, I wonder if maybe there is, or was, one out there in Oregon truly carnivorous.

 

[DragonsEye]

Interesting line of thought that sticky hairs first came about as a means of protection and later were adapted to carnivory. Wonder what it would take to nudge petunias over the edge to make them predatory ... heh (Anyone who has grown them knows how sticky/tacky the stems and leaves are. I know folks who won't grow them because the feel gives them the willies. )

 

[Sarracenia67]

Interesting line of thought that sticky hairs first came about as a means of protection and later were adapted to carnivory. Wonder what it would take to nudge petunias over the edge to make them predatory ... heh (Anyone who has grown them knows how sticky/tacky the stems and leaves are. I know folks who won't grow them because the feel gives them the willies. )

Carnivory only evolves in conditions with low nutrients, particularly nitrogen and/or phosphate, even then it is extremely rare. Givnish, et al has a good paper that talks about the cost-benefits of carnivory. They basically concluded plants need very low nutrients with excess water and sunlight. There area a few outliers to this rule (catopsis, roridula, etc.), but in general it holds true. It is also suspected that many aspects of carnivory evolved from defensive structures. LoPresti et al looked at the sticky genus Mimulus (now Diplacus and Erythranthe) and saw this stickyness was a means to trap herbivorous insects to attract carnivorous insects to defend the plant. As far as I can tell, this mutualism has little to no nutritional benefit to the plant as seen in Roridula. Would be a great area to explore more of.

 

[FrankenSnyder]

Carnivory only evolves in conditions with low nutrients, particularly nitrogen and/or phosphate, even then it is extremely rare. Givnish, et al has a good paper that talks about the cost-benefits of carnivory. They basically concluded plants need very low nutrients with excess water and sunlight. There area a few outliers to this rule (catopsis, roridula, etc.), but in general it holds true. It is also suspected that many aspects of carnivory evolved from defensive structures. LoPresti et al looked at the sticky genus Mimulus (now Diplacus and Erythranthe) and saw this stickyness was a means to trap herbivorous insects to attract carnivorous insects to defend the plant. As far as I can tell, this mutualism has little to no nutritional benefit to the plant as seen in Roridula. Would be a great area to explore more of.

I am very pleased with the monkey flower plantlets grown from the seed you sent me. Dewing very well. Attached is a photo of their first supper; a fruitfly head. There is a feeding reaction which looks the same as in butterworts. I have also fed them fly specks and they have burst into growth. I believe this plant has adapted to feed so. Fly specks for larger plants, springtail specks for the small. I have witnessed flies in the act of so feeding the plants in nature. Flowers beckon flies. I’ve also noticed the leaves of some monkey flower species I’ve studied give off a fragrance which seems to attract flies. The fragrance emanates from the dew glands. Dew is not very sticky, so not for trapping insects. It can work for discouraging some creatures while attracting others. It all adds up: Carnivory is accidental in this Monkey Flower.

I’m planning to take a plant with me to a picnic at a marsh in my neighborhood. Where a multitude of Marsh Flies will provide a splendid feast.

 

[adnedarn]

Very cool observations!!

 

[FrankenSnyder]

I put one of Sarracenia67’s plants at my neighborhood marsh. Shot this photo after one week. Got more covered with flyspecks than I expected.


This second photo is of my Topanga M. nasutus at home, hand-fed a flyspeck.

 

[FrankenSnyder]

Interesting line of thought that sticky hairs first came about as a means of protection and later were adapted to carnivory. Wonder what it would take to nudge petunias over the edge to make them predatory ... heh (Anyone who has grown them knows how sticky/tacky the stems and leaves are. I know folks who won't grow them because the feel gives them the willies. )

Here is a photo I shot of my D. brivifolia flower stalk with 2 captured minute insects.

 

[Steve Booth]

Here's a non-hairy candidate.

Carnivory in the Teasel Dipsacus fullonum — The Effect of Experimental Feeding on Growth and Seed Set

The teasel, Dipsacus fullonum is known to catch invertebrates in its water filled leaf bases, but experimental testing of reproductive benefits of this have been lacking. We report the effects of insect supplementation/removal and water removal during ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Cheers
Steve