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One more Nepenthes seed germination guide. This one is unique, but if you know Dave Evans, you know this really works for him. He would not recommend something he has not tried.
Cheers,

Joe


Dear Nepenthes Cultivators,


Nepenthes start their lives as extremely small babies. This letter is
intended to help you be more successful at growing _Nepenthes_ from seed to
their juvenile or rosette stage, which most everyone is familiar with.

The seeds should be stored in dry conditions, until sown.

The soil needs to be light and fluffy, well draining, yet it should be able
hold some water. The easiest mixture I have found for _Nepenthes seedlings_
follows: four parts perlite, four parts dried long fiber _Sphagnum_ moss
chopped up, one to two parts charcoal, and one to two parts peat moss. The
size of the particles should be the smallest possible. Take care not to
expose yourself to the dust which can be stirred up from the perlite and
other dry soil components by wetting while still in the bag (also you can
use a fiber glass/dry wall dust mask to help avoid the dust). Moisten and
mix the components together. Break up, any and all clumps; try to make the
soil as homogenized as possible. I have also started to bake the soil I use
for _Nepenthes_ seedlings as this pasteurizes the soil to drastically cut
down on the number of different fungus and other things from growing in the
soil, possibly harmful to the seedlings. Also, a light dusting of sulfur
works very well at keeping fungus away. This is important as a quickly
growing fungus colony can make fast work of seedlings if the conditions
favor it too much.

There are a number of ways to proceed. The soil can be placed into sealed
food containers, put into pots or you can use some other method you are
happy with. I use pots, while Seam Samia uses sealed food containers. If
you are using sealed containers, make sure the soil is moist, but not wet.
Moist means you can only see the wetness by squeezing the soil, you should
be able to feel the moisture, but it should not wet your hand just by
touching it. Also, do not spray the seed with water to settle it onto the
soil, instead just push the seed onto the moistened soil and shut the
container. If there is too much water on the seed, in the soil, or on the
seedling in 100% humidity it will never dry and will probably cause rot
killing the seedling or stunting it for quite a while. Place in pure
darkness for 10 days. That's right, no light at all.

I use pots with the soil filled about 2/3 to the top (six inch tall pots), I
pack the soil in, then sprinkle some unpacked soil for about an inch and
then sprinkle the seeds onto the loose soil, trying to space them evenly. I
use tweezers to push the seed onto the soil surface. Even into shallow
depressions in the soil surface. You can use a spray bottle with pure water
mixed with a couple of drops of Listerine (it kills germs, even those on the
soil/seed) set to mist to settle the seeds into good contact with the soil,
try not to soak. Keep the soil moist to slightly less than wet. If it is
wet, place on news paper for a while so excess water drains. Place in a
plastic bag and put in pure darkness for 10 days. That's right, no light at
all.

_Nepenthes_ seedlings germinate in fairly low light. After ten days of
darkness, move the pots or containers to the area where you are starting the
babies. It should be the dimmest spot in your _Nepenthes_ growing area.
Some folks like to start their seed in 100% humidity, and this can work out
pretty well. I have found it easier to start the seed in elevated humidity,
at about 95% humidity. Humidity conditions lower than 100% humidity helps
keep small plants like mosses in check; it also helps avoid problems with
fungus; also the plants grow more compact are a little stronger. Be careful
though, as it can be easy to dry them out. Also, make sure the humidity
stays very high during the entire length of the seedling period.

The seed might not germinate until some moss starts colonizing the soil
surface, could be up to six weeks before germination starts. A neat "trick"
to try, once five or six weeks have passed and there doesn't seem to much or
any seedling activity, is to drastically reduce the amount of light reaching
the soil surface for about six days. Not to total darkness, but say about
one quarter of the previous level. Then bring it back up to the normal, yet
rather dimmer level for seedling growth. I believe this dimming cycle
'tricks' the seed into thinking the mosses are starting to cover the seeds
and there is enough "soil" for the baby plants to root into. Of course,
there is plenty of soil for them thanks to your efforts; but the plants are
designed to survive in an environment that is eroding, patches of tiny
plants like mosses are actually some of the only soil they have to work in
the wild.

Once the seed start to germinate, ovoid misting or straying the seedlings.
They can be very delicate at first and even a fine mist can cause them to
damp-off, especially if you are growing them in 100% humidity. The plants
should continue to grow larger with each leaf grown and will enter the
rosette stage in about 12 to 14 months. Some will grow better or faster
than others. If your plantlets are nice and green, but appear to be
stretching for light; do increase the light level slightly. As they get
larger, they do need more light.

Problems I have had with my seedlings:
1) Yellowing due to too much light and/or too low humidity.
2) Salt build up on soil due to excess salt in soil (rinsing is a good idea)
possibly released by decay of soil components.
3) Slow development due excessive humidity.
4) Rotting by excess water which could not dry from the plants growing in
100% humidity.
5) Fungus growing from soil (especially cedar mulch component) which I
hadn't pasteurized. Not a problem anymore.

Any questions, please ask.


Best of Luck,
Dave Evans
 
As weird as it might sound, this works. I tried it with the last batch of nep seeds i had, and got quite a high success rate. Don't always be so quick to say "Oh, it WON'T work!"

I find that light is not needed to be so strong. Everyone will tell you, put the pot really close to the light, and that works too, but trust me, put it in the darkest corner of your terrarium, and slowly move it closer, if it makes you feel better. You'll be surprised to see baby neps popping out of the soil.
 
I asked Dave if it was okay to post this(after I did it) and he had this disclaimer:

I think they are still in the experiemental stage. I’m not sure how helpful keeping the pots in the dark really is and am still evaluating it... Maybe put some sort of disclaimer, mentioning this is suppose help make a better class of micro-organisms on the surface of the soil for the seedling to share the pot with. I’m 90% sure those instructions are all on point. It is important for people to try different things though... People need to understand these plants are still not well known and there is plenty room for improvement where our culture of them is concerned.

I had N. fusca and N. stenophylla(or is it officially fallax these days?) germintae once near my lights, but not under.
Now when my family moved the baggies completely away when cleaning a little months after germination-that did not work so well, lol.

Cheers,

Joe
 
Its fallax now.

As has been the case in the past, this is yet another topic where I disagree with Dave on...well just about everything!

I gotta run now but I'll edit this post later with specific qualms...but honestly I can not see a high germination rate from keeping pots dark. All the pots I've had that weren't in the brightest light possible had 20% or lower (often 0% germination). All the pots I've put right on the lights have gotten 60% or higher (usually 80%) germination. Concidence? I think not.

Ok here goes:
Soil mix ok, baking soil ok...sulfur? WHAT? That can't be good for them...
Moistness ok. "do not spray the seed with water blah blah push it into the soil". That is a bad idea. Spraying with water gets about 99% off the seed to stick perfectly to the soil. If you touch the seed (as he recommends), some of it is going to come off on your fingers/the tweezers, or be pushed too far into the soil, but of which will not result in germination.
Now...he's talking about making soil wet, sealing it (no air movement) and putting it in the dark...but he's worried about fungus? Those conditions are ASKING for fungus. That grow method is literally better suited to fungus than Nepenthes seed.
Again, putting seed in darknessis the opposite of what you should do for good germination.
_Nepenthes_ seedlings germinate in fairly low light.
Does anyone wonder why in the wild, germination rate is about 2%? Simple: not enough light. Some species (mirabilis etc), actually germinate best in full sun, so the above statement can't be true any way you slice it.
Then again, more with the darkness in the next paragraph. ???
is to drastically reduce the amount of light reaching
the soil surface for about six days. Not to total darkness, but say about
one quarter of the previous level
I hope he is kidding. Since he already previously said to put the seeds in low light...we're talking about like...10 lumens at this point. Thats like the strength of a single candle in a large room. In other words, this isn't going to help at all.
I believe this dimming cycle
'tricks' the seed into thinking the mosses are starting to cover the seeds
and there is enough "soil" for the baby plants to root into
You know whats a better idea? Just giving them a ridiculously high amount of light in the first place. That way you wouldn't even need to use his "trick" 5 or 6 weeks later, becuase you would have germination between 2 and 4 weeks.

Once the seed start to germinate, ovoid misting or straying the seedlings.
They can be very delicate at first and even a fine mist can cause them to
damp-off,
Well then how else do you water them? I spray all my seedlings and very rarely do I lose any. Don't you think they get rainedon in the wild (they do).

will enter the
rosette stage in about 12 to 14 months.
They actually start the rosette stage immediately after the cotyledons...so about 2 weeks after germinating.

Yellowing due to too much light
I suppose he's talking about the perlite, which is caused by the peat and/or algae. Light will NOT cause this, but its harmless anyway.

3) Slow development due excessive humidity.
They're slow because there isn't enough light.

4) Rotting by excess water which could not dry from the plants growing in
100% humidity.
Really? Sounds to me like a symptom of having a closed container in low light. I distinctly remember saying not to do either of those in my FAQ...and I've never had that problem.

Let me just add that neps of all sizes, with the exception of certain ones (bical, northiana, etc), will grow best in the highest light possible. I know some people that grow huge bicals in almost full sun too. More light is always appreciated (be careful with the sun though).
 
PK, I can't imagine you disagreeing with anybody.....

:jester:

N. fallax vs N. stenophylla must be along the lines of Sarracenia rosea vs S. purpurea ssp venosa 'Louis Burke.' Not everyone seems to be on the same page of agreement.
Rob Cantley even still lists it as N. stenophylla on his site.

Cheers,

Joe
 
Last edited:
Wistuba lists it as fallax, and I trust his judgement a little more (except N. flava? What was he thinking ???).

Don't even get me started on Cantley...
 
Understandable on how you feel about Wistuba, won't get an arguement from me. To each his own.
I like to see all the opinions of the more well-known field researchers(ie Wistuba, Clarke, Cantley and Chi'en Lee). I got to meet all of them at the only ICPS conference I went to (SF, 2000). :-))
Andreas has had it listed as N. fallax for ...heck a long time. In fact, I used to see both names in people's growlists, lol.
As far as sulfur for a fungicide, my choice was always Benomyl(if they still make it-do you use anything?), but a lot of people have recommended sulfur
The dark thing works for Dave (Sean Samia and Rockstarcobain too).
Some people across the pond like perlite/vermiculite or pure vermiculite. I knew a guy(who has been pretty ill for several years, so don't even know if he still has a collection) in Liverpool, UK who used the perlite/vermiculite with great success. Had a nice flat of veitchii x trusmadiensis there for a while.
Your mix adds peat to that, and makes a lot of sense to me. Makes a lot of contact with the soil, so I will try that with some of the ventricosa seed I am getting. I have noticed with milled or chopped sphagnum, it takes A LOT of watering to get the seed to get good contact. I tried perlite/vermiculite with no success(well, it's been about a year). Maybe the seed was not fresh.

Cheers,

Joe

PS How long you been growing CP, PK?
 
We have great success germinating seed in moderate light, but I would hardly call it shady. If you held your hand about one foot over the tray you would see a shadow sharp enough to distinguish spread fingers, but not a hard shadow. Mirabilis seed do take it brighter and ampullaria needs a little more shade. Dave's formula is pretty much on track based upon our experience. This darkness bit is the only thing I question, but he is experimenting so let's see what happens. Our seed go directly to greenhouse benches in their trays. Some germinate in as short a period as ten days, others have taken up to six months, with 1 to 2 months being the norm.
 
It is excellent that Dave manages to put across the need for a certain trigger for Nep germination. Recently I observed something that might add value to what he is doing with the seeds.

Some nep seeds were sown in three containers with clear covers. Following months of inactivity, I decided to sow another batch of new seeds on top of them. I deliberately sowed different-looking seeds so that I can ID them later. Within a week, germination occurred. And they are seeds of the older batch! This happened in two separate containers.

Either the older seeds felt the sudden
1. lack of light or
2. lack of space; perhaps they feel stiffled as they would by mosses

I am not sure if Dave visits TF regularly. Would like to hear his comments on this.
 
  • #10
Wistuba lists it as fallax, and I trust his judgement a little more (except N. flava? What was he thinking ???).

Don't even get me started on Cantley...

Feel free, go for it! It will be fun! :jester: Go on someone, get him started. Give us all a laugh!

IMO, Dave's method should work perfectly well and doesn't deserve to be dissected bit by bit unless the person doing teh criticism knows by experience what he's talking about. This evidently isn't the case here. Nepenthes certainly can and do germinate in very low light and can continue from there, sometimes in very large population density, often remaining slow growing but healthy until opportunity gives them the light levels they are waiting for - which is very species dependent. The figure of 2% for wild Nepenthes germination quoted above is fictional, and whether or not a Nepenthes seed germinates has nothing whatever to do with high light levels. If a viable seed has all the other factors present it will germinate. Thereafter it needs but a little light to get going.

I shan't bother to go into the rest, but thanks Joe for posting a practical guide to try to help people, and don't be put off by armchair criticism from people less experienced than you. As you said, this works for Dave and he wouldn't have posted it if he hadn't tried it.
 
  • #11
Giving seed higher light will get you a higher germination rate and seed will germinate faster. Maybe you should heed your own advice about not criticizing if you haven't tried it. I don't see how much growing you could be doing yourself with a staff of 55!
If you think light has nothing to do with germination, then you have no idea what you're talking about. You're also the only 'prominent' figure in the nep field that I know of that doesn't accept the 2% germination rate in the wild that I know of, as I have heard it quoted many, many, many times. Again, you are denying what I say while providing absolutely no evidence to the contrary, and attempting to attack me. Let's not have another pitcherplants incident here. Maybe if you had a bio degree you would know how important light is for germination of seeds that stay on the surface :D.

As I said on the other forum, I advise you to grow up and drop it; I thought we were past this.
 
  • #12
Oh dear! It's OK for you to pull someone elses ideas to pieces on flimsy evidence but no-one is allowed to disagree with you. Then it becomes a personal attack, is that it?

I did not say they don't need any light, I said high light levels. Do you imagine I just popped into existence with a nursery and staff of 55? For the first decade of my experience with Nepenthes, I ran a nursery with just me, myself and I. When I first started sowing Nepenthes seeds in nurseries (before you were born I might point out), I had them germinating in all sorts of different ways and soon came to realise that gloomy conditions are just fine for most species. It's natural in fact. It's easier to keep other parameters such as humidity tolerable with lower light levels too. Dave's growing guide is from personal experience not written by some armchair academic. By all means post your opinions and ideas, you don't have to agree with things either, but try reading the way you picked apart and criticised every sentence he had written.

The 2% figure comes from where? Which species? what sample population? All species? I tell you it's fictional, or no more than an inspired guess. No-one has ever done a comprehensive survey on this. Sometimes a large proportion of the seeds from a wild plant will germinate, other times none at all. Depends on the situation.

It really doesn't make any difference to the way Nepenthes seeds germinate as to who has or has not a bio degree. Some chip you're carrying there. You need to get out of your Lubbock classrooms and into the field ASAP, to round off your knowledge.
 
  • #13
Maybe if you had a bio degree you would know how important light is for germination of seeds that stay on the surface .

science cant explain everything... thats all i have to say on this whole matter.

Alex
 
  • #14
well.....remember that SCIENCE in text books and most theories are made considering things in "IDEAL" conditions. Nature is not bound by those rules. Every species has its own requirement.
 
  • #15
Funny, the guy I know who runs a TC lab and does a lot of CPs (Neps included) has told me flat out that if a trial batch of something new to culture does not show germination after a while he sets it in the dark along with starting a second batch that goes straight into the dark. So if his first hand experience and direct comments to me are anything to go by then I'd say Dave's ideas have merit.

Oh and just in case it really matters, I am scant weeks away from a PhD in microbiology and my TC guy holds a biology degree. So I am not just some half whit who does not know biology.
 
  • #16
Rob and Pyro- It always seems it's the 'newbie know-it-alls' that like to challenge first hand and practical knowledge and experience. Pyro- many congratulations on your achievements and reaching your academic goals. Rob- seeing as you are one of the top 3 Nepenthes gurus on planet earth...your abilities and beautiful plants speak for themselves. Thanks to you, I have a splendid species collection; seed origin or not!
 
  • #17
What I say in terms of light intensity is based on my experiences as well, which pretty much negates the "armchair" comments. Every time I hear of someone with low germination, failed germination, or seeds that took months to germinate, the things they always have in common are low light and occasionally low humidity.

Experience is great, but its nothing without knowledge of the subject as well. Would you let someone operate on you that's never been to medical school but has done it before? Me neither. I think you are all also forgetting that just because a way works doesn't mean its the best way, and there are multiple ways to do almost anything. But jeez...you guys are right. There's no way I could ever challenge one of "the gurus"! I mean...one of "the gurus" being wrong, about anything, ever? No way! I guess you're right that no one else's personal experience, especially when in opposition to any of theirs, could ever mean anything. Guess I'll just go sit in the corner, only listen to 3 people and their religious fans, and make sure no advances whatsoever in the nep world happen, unless its at the hand of those 3 (well technically 4). Wouldn't want to figure something out only to be told I'm wrong about it immediately, especially by people that only believe one person about everything. This is starting to remind me of organized religion ;)
 
  • #18
Quote frpm PK:
"I think you are all also forgetting that just because a way works doesn't mean its the best way, and there are multiple ways to do almost anything."

I could be wrong here, but isn't everyone saying that there ARE different methods to germinate Nepenthes seed?

???

Cheers,

Joe
 
  • #19
All I'm saying is every time I've personally gotten low or no germination, its been the result of low light. With others I've talked to with low or no germination, it's been low light and/or low humidity. I'm not saying low light absolutely will not ever work, but I can't see it being a preferred method based on greater success of seeds in high light.
 
  • #20
Sounds like we need a real experiment!
 
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