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i am a redneck......

  • #21
This is where I'm a little lost on the wolf issue, though. This justification for hunting, in that it keeps deer etc. populations in check, is based on the fact that natural predators are lacking. Wolves' numbers are rebounding, which ought to restore that balance as nature intended. Yet, hunters are pushing to hunt wolves, citing reasons such as their killing livestock. (Surely there must be a way of protecting livestock from wolves? Guard donkeys?) Other than that, I simply don't understand why allowing a natural top predator to rebound is a bad thing. Wouldn't it eliminate the "need" for hunters to hunt so many deer, etc? If there truly is that legitimate concern for keeping natural populations in balance, then why not allow them to return to equilibrium?

couple facts on the wolf issue, before they "reintroduced" this larger northern Canadian wolf there were the prairie wolves here that were the natural part of the ecosystem.....anyone that spent any time in the back country new the wolves were there but they really never caused any issues.....the prairie wolves that were here also topped out at about 90 pounds.....they introduced a critter not native to the ecosystem, a wolf that on average is twice the size of the native prairie wolves.....

those reintroducing the wolves, introduced a wolf not native to the area, destroying the genetic pool that was here, and introduced an animal that is significantly larger in body size and runs in larger packs......be like me looking to reintroduce black bears to somewhere in the eastern US and deciding what the hell grizzlies are cooler lets turn them loose instead who cares that they were never there......

the recovery goal that was sold to us was 300 wolves for the region.....we now have 1700 of them which is 3 times what we were told 15 years ago the ecosystem could even handle.....they told us the wolves would eat an estimated 12 elk per wolf per year, they are eating closer to 22 as well as playing hell with livestock.....elk herds in the areas with wolves are crashing to the point they will not recover until wolves are drastically reduced in numbers.....the herds are loosing population three times as fast as can be replaced......

be like you working your rears off to save Sarrs in wetlands on your property, reintroducing the species that used to live there before being wiped out by over harvesting, getting them back up the healthy numbers with a population expanding to the point you can take a division now and then for yourself or to give to others and all the sudden a group steps in saying we dont care if its your land, we will control the numbers of Sarrs and then they decide what a healthy population is and take out 5 times the divisions you used to....

Montana is closing moose hunting districs and dropping the number of moose licenses at an alarming rate.....at this point it looks like i will never hunt moose in my home state though a short while ago their numbers were expanding nicely and they were getting back into habitat they had previously been absent from for the last 100 years.......

as to letting the wolves hunt and stop human hunting......human hunting of these animals is very controlled....its hunters that saved the elk and got it to expand into areas that they had been wiped out by hunters.....in 15 years the wolves are destroying what it took conservation minded hunters 60 years to achieve.....

large numbers of wolves have no place in the lower 48, their habitat is to fragmented, though Montana, Idaho and Wyoming have good sized tracks of wilderness area these areas are patchworked by humans......Alaska and Canada do not have such a problem which is why the wolf thrives up there even with unlimited hunting......there is no keeping wolf packs from livestock, guard donkeys and dogs work fine against 30 pound coyotes that work alone or in pairs, in the face of 5 adult wolves they become the main course.....
 
  • #22
One question I always have for people who are against pretty much any harm to life whatsoever: What are your thoughts on our complete eradication of some diseases?
 
  • #23
If you are going to disrepsect somone do it as PM.

Can we show some civility and save the anger for PMs?

Actually, disrespect on this forum be it public or private should not happen. Rule #1, be nice.period. We understand that some topics get heated, and we're not about to jump in on any little thing. We want discussions! even touchy ones... So lets show our views, while respecting others. It's not too much to ask. (not saying any one has gotten out of line yet, I haven't actually read much of it but had to make these notes on these comments :) )
Andrew
 
  • #24
I have been sitting back going through the thread, and although I was not present for the chat, I think I have an idea of who was involved :) I've always respected Rattler because he simply tells it how it is... period. Some don't like it, and one could argue that maybe a forum is not the most effective place for a "debate,” but I personally respect it.

Killing animals for food is absolutely acceptable in my opinion, and I will never understand those that take the cute little bambi approach as their means to argue against it... BUT, they are entitled to their opinion. I also think you hit the nail on the head when you said animal rights should not equal human rights... and I couldn’t agree more. I believe there is a clear hierarchy, and as much as some people don't like it, people are at the top. Now… it is up to us to not abuse our dominion, and I have a problem with people that do. But all of the hunters and country folks I know kill for a reason that is plenty good enough in my book.

I think the biggest thing this exchange has illustrated... is that we are by and large a product of our culture. Some people can think they are being judged by someone making a generalization about their region or state, but honestly, we all know there are very apparent differences in how the average person acts and how he or she believes… period. I was born in Twin Falls, ID and was raised in Texas. Though I would not personally hunt, I have NO problem with someone who does, as long as the animal does not die in vain. I do fish though... and I love it.

Of course, the grand irony of this thread is that there are those that are saying creatures feel pain, yet we all grow flesh eating plants... that utilize extremely cruel methods to capture their prey :) Too bad they can't simply shoot the fly with a shotgun.

Anyway, my two cents plus a few admittedly bad attempts at humor.

Phil
 
  • #25
Stray dogs and cats are cute critters, should we kill and eat them too? :)
 
  • #26
silly larry....who knows what stray dogs and cats have been eating....especially in the city :lol:

but in all seriousness, it might just be me, but i feel weird eating tier 2 animals on the food chain....i'll keep my selection to the primary consumers....except for tuna....i love tuna.
 
  • #27
I think a couple of fast food chains have already made this happen.


Stray dogs and cats are cute critters, should we kill and eat them too? :)
 
  • #29
I think a couple of fast food chains have already made this happen.

lol, Gross. Though that would explain why the food just doesn't taste right.

---------- Post added at 01:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:42 PM ----------

those reintroducing the wolves, introduced a wolf not native to the area, destroying the genetic pool that was here, and introduced an animal that is significantly larger in body size and runs in larger packs......be like me looking to reintroduce black bears to somewhere in the eastern US and deciding what the hell grizzlies are cooler lets turn them loose instead who cares that they were never there......

Ahh, okay. I didn't realize that it wasn't the same sort of wolf that was native to the area. I see what you're saying. That is pretty disturbing actually. Introducing still more foreign populations into an unbalanced ecosystem is almost guaranteed to not have the desired effect. There are still environmental management folks who haven't gotten that memo? Wow...
 
  • #30
Stray dogs and cats are cute critters, should we kill and eat them too?

We're already killing them... If there wasn't potential for a public health hazard, I'd say "go for it."


There are still environmental management folks who haven't gotten that memo? Wow...

See: fire suppression. ;) Plenty of good memos still going ignored.


i can point out to you what pasture the beef in my freezer was raised on, can you?

I live in sissified, next-door-to-San-Francisco, tree-hugging Berkeley -- but yes, I can. My job has me working with dairy farmers and cattle ranchers in Marin County. I like to support their commitment to the environment with my dollars, when I can. :)
 
  • #31
Man that's sort of bruttle but youv'e got to eat.

Dude it's like oh hi deer :-O nice to see you today see you later hey guys go get the 12 gauge HEYYYYYYYYYY DEERRRRRRRRRRRRR HAHHHHH! :mwahaha: Yay i killed it :usa2: .



JUST A JOKE OK! :-)) :-))
 
  • #32
Stray dogs and cats are cute critters, should we kill and eat them too?
In India, some people eat rats...I'm sure most things nasty die after being cooked! :D I have have heard of many a suspicious curry that was definitely NOT goat : that's why the Indians spice food - to hide the taste of not-so-good meat. :)

To comment on this, I am pretty split on this discussion. I am practically a vegetarian, partly because I don't like killing animals (indirectly or not) but also because I'm not really that keen on the taste anyway. I respect people who 'cook it, kill it, eat it', as they actually understand the process behind it all, which is better than trying to ignore the connection between meat and animals. I think this has blown a bit out of proportion really, so long as it's not affecting you or damaging the environment, I don't really see the problem. If you are going to kick up a fuss about something like this, the fishing industry (I mean INDUSTRY, not individual fishers) is a better party to attack.

I'm quite amazed about this whole reintroduction of a non native species though! However, you may be 'controlling populations' of animals, but human kind can't really be called a 'native species'. We might have been around for a few thousand years, but how long have some of these animals been in America? Maybe this is a stupid point, but we do get wrapped up in ourselves sometimes, we only really belong in Africa... I'm not saying putting wrong predators in a place is good, it is very wrong, nor am I saying we should all just move to Africa, but it's just a thought... although I do understand it is to protect cattle etc... I just wanted to make the point... we so often get wrapped up in where we are 'from'. If the wrong wolves are being introduced, you really should kick up a fuss!
 
  • #33
Wolves? I have a far worse problem... fire ants :( Stupid things were introduced here by a ship and have been killing all the native ants. I use chemical warfare whenever possible.


In India, some people eat rats...I'm sure most things nasty die after being cooked! :D I have have heard of many a suspicious curry that was definitely NOT goat : that's why the Indians spice food - to hide the taste of not-so-good meat. :)

To comment on this, I am pretty split on this discussion. I am practically a vegetarian, partly because I don't like killing animals (indirectly or not) but also because I'm not really that keen on the taste anyway. I respect people who 'cook it, kill it, eat it', as they actually understand the process behind it all, which is better than trying to ignore the connection between meat and animals. I think this has blown a bit out of proportion really, so long as it's not affecting you or damaging the environment, I don't really see the problem. If you are going to kick up a fuss about something like this, the fishing industry (I mean INDUSTRY, not individual fishers) is a better party to attack.

I'm quite amazed about this whole reintroduction of a non native species though! However, you may be 'controlling populations' of animals, but human kind can't really be called a 'native species'. We might have been around for a few thousand years, but how long have some of these animals been in America? Maybe this is a stupid point, but we do get wrapped up in ourselves sometimes, we only really belong in Africa... I'm not saying putting wrong predators in a place is good, it is very wrong, nor am I saying we should all just move to Africa, but it's just a thought... although I do understand it is to protect cattle etc... I just wanted to make the point... we so often get wrapped up in where we are 'from'. If the wrong wolves are being introduced, you really should kick up a fuss!
 
  • #34
We're already killing them... If there wasn't potential for a public health hazard, I'd say "go for it."

True facts. Millions of stray animals are euthanized in shelters every year. Right now they're garbage, but I think one day we'll probably be hungry enough...

See: fire suppression. Plenty of good memos still going ignored.

Sigh, yeah. Back to my pit of despair over what our species is doing to the planet.

On the flip side, though, we humans are in an interesting position here at the top. Many people go vegetarian because the net environmental impact of farming plant crops is so much lower than that of ranching cattle, etc. Many hunters are very mindful of the ecological relationships between animal populations, and have done work to restore the balance that has been lost. As a species we do recognize that our actions have consequences...and I think that gives us the duty to act as good stewards of our planet. I think we can all agree there.
 
  • #35
@baylorguy
Not only do my plants eat bugs, my cat and dog eat meat!
*gasp! the scandal!*
I however, can survive without, so I don't eat it. Simple enough reasoning to me.
 
  • #36
where's that "like" button? :scratch:

On the flip side, though, we humans are in an interesting position here at the top. Many people go vegetarian because the net environmental impact of farming plant crops is so much lower than that of ranching cattle, etc. Many hunters are very mindful of the ecological relationships between animal populations, and have done work to restore the balance that has been lost. As a species we do recognize that our actions have consequences...and I think that gives us the duty to act as good stewards of our planet. I think we can all agree there.
 
  • #37
On the flip side, though, we humans are in an interesting position here at the top. Many people go vegetarian because the net environmental impact of farming plant crops is so much lower than that of ranching cattle, etc. Many hunters are very mindful of the ecological relationships between animal populations, and have done work to restore the balance that has been lost. As a species we do recognize that our actions have consequences...and I think that gives us the duty to act as good stewards of our planet. I think we can all agree there.

this isnt a blanket statement, it depends where you are, some places my family run cows is impossible to farm and to make it possible would destroy more habitat than running cattle on it.....gotta figure most the interior of the US had millions of buffalo and with proper grazing practices running cattle on the ground is no more harmful than if the buffalo were still there.....feedlots cause huge environmental impact, pasture raised beef not so much.....

as far as the eating of wierd things, if your squeamish at all and are invited to some feasts on indian reservations, best not to ask what kinda meat is in the stew......dog, least young ones dont taste that bad......and if cats taste anything close to mountain lion they are going to be good eats, of any wild game ive had mountain lion is at the top of the list as far as good eating.....
 
  • #38
It just goes to show, it takes all kinds to grow carnivorous plants.
 
  • #39
this isnt a blanket statement, it depends where you are, some places my family run cows is impossible to farm and to make it possible would destroy more habitat than running cattle on it.....gotta figure most the interior of the US had millions of buffalo and with proper grazing practices running cattle on the ground is no more harmful than if the buffalo were still there.....feedlots cause huge environmental impact, pasture raised beef not so much....

Right, and I didn't mean it to be a blanket statement. My point was more that people will interpret their responsibility to the environment in a way that is right for them. Whether that means ensuring their meat is coming from a sustainable source, or looking to other sustainable food alternatives. Neither way is "correct"...just different means to a common goal. And both commendable IMO.
 
  • #40
a good example of this is where i hunt....its federal ground leased to ranchers for pasturing cattle during late spring/summer/early fall but the cattle have to be off by the end of November.....dont know how many times cattle have ruined a shot at a buck cause the cattle dont affect the local deer, elk and pronghorn populations at all and they will intermingle at times......this has to do with the fact cattle are grazers like buffalo where the deer, elk and pronghorn are mainly browsers and dont compete with each other for food.....

the area is also rich in sage grouse which are declining elsewhere because of their feeding grounds getting plowed into fields.....out where i hunt the ground isnt good gor growing wheat but is fin for the short grass and sagebrush that the sage grouse need, and they view the cattle as no different than the buffalo they used to deal with.....running cattle out there has had nearly zero environmental impact where raising crops would.....you see all the critters and vegetation you would have 1000 years ago minus the huge herds of bison which have been replaced with smaller herds of cattle.....
 
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