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Discuss: Nomenclature edits on forum posts

  • #41
This is the only forum I've been on where correcting factual errors was a moderator responsibility. Normally moderators are there to keep things civil.

I think this is what irks me the most, too. Many of us are members on other forums within the CP hobby and elsewhere, and I've never seen a single moderator, or even a group of them, take it upon themselves to dig through other people's posts and "correct" errors. It's simply intrusive and rude. A reply or PM (with sufficient documentation) is all that is needed if the correction is warranted.

I understand the forum wants to set a good example by keeping nomenclature up to date, but it's already been proven that isn't even the case in some recent instances. And honestly, how constructive is all the pedantry? I've seen the argument that it creates confusion for other people in the hobby, particularly those just starting out. I guess I understand that...but If I'm a new person looking for some help, the last thing I care about is a flippin' misplaced quotation mark.
 
  • #42
sorry, comments were of no use and i deleted
 
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  • #43
ah heck, why not.....


[the accepted name is actually H. tatei f. parva]

When such an edit is made it appears as though the majority of sources are in agreement.
This can not be further from the truth. In this case at least, it is outdated and incorrect.

In my thread the name in question was how it is used by ICPS, by CPN, by cphotofinder,
by international organizations, by published reference books , etc
DNA evidence even showed that the "corrected" name was in fact incorrect all along
I just don't see in what world this makes sense...
Just what makes the one database more correct than ICPS, CPN, Wistuba, McPherson, DNA evidence, etc

someone explain this to me please, I'm missing something....
 
  • #44
Most other forums I'm associated with, simply delete any posts that discuss moderation, pro or con, and send warnings to members who made the posts - like mini dictatorships.

I would be remiss if I did not point out that in the past 24 hours, two of my posts were deleted wholesale - posts in which I politely but firmly took sides with Djoni and echoed her displeasure. One of those posts had no less than five other forum members add their "thanks" to it as an apparent sign of their approval. But of course - I cannot prove any of that since the posts were deleted.
 
  • #45
I don't like it and it just causes problems.

Its petty and ridiculous. Who seriously doesnt know what a sarr is on a CP forum lol!?
 
  • #46
Private messaging a user before a mod edits a post is just ridiculous, I am honestly shocked how many people suggested such a thing. You want your PM box to fill up faster or what? ???

Publicly editing the posts using moderator powers and changing user's words is obviously deeply offensive to many.

Publicly posting your thoughts and corrections (moderator or otherwise) in a separate post within that thread almost always leads to lengthy and informed taxonomical debate.

Leaving incorrect nomenclature confuses people that are new to the hobby and makes us look like filthy casuals (I am [as filthy as it gets]).

It confounds matters worse - Joseph - when you have edited somebody's thread (perhaps a very respected and knowledgeable grower) and you aren't actually even correct! Or you are taking some fantastical hardline stance towards unregistered hybrid names that have been in use for many decades. These are the sorts of things that really get people upset, and it doesn't even speak to the fluidity of this hobby that you yourself just mentioned. This is why it would be much better to leave it to its own separate post where it can be totally yours and others can chime into the debate without already feeling that they were violated.


I think it very progressive of Andrew that he works with the membership of TF in this way. Most other forums I'm associated with, simply delete any posts that discuss moderation, pro or con, and send warnings to members who made the posts - like mini dictatorships.

This is the most important thing to remember. I see a lot of people talking about their rights as humans and getting all worked up over this. Have you forgotten where you are? This is the internet. We use fake internet handles in place of our actual names so that we don't have to own up to the things we say. We can lead dual lives where we are someone completely different than who we actually are! Ironically Joseph is one of the only people on this whole forum who goes by his actual name and then has to own up to things he's done personally.

It's been said many times that these sorts of issues can create an unwelcoming atmosphere that inhibits other members from joining, contributing or speaking up. The sentiment continues that perhaps even people that are already posting will feel the need to stop posting here or leave the forum altogether. I would like to remind those of this train of thought that it is rarely a moderator or administrator's actions that create an atmosphere of unwelcomeness - it is the actions of other user's. I have watched more people leave this site, take breaks of activity, or be generally discouraged from using Terraforums because of the behavior and attitudes of other members than I have because of any moderator's actions. So next time some of you are ready to start a lynch-mob over Joseph's editing, take a look at yourself and ask yourself - am I being pedantic, oppressive, and unfriendly to noobs?

TL;DR

Nothing should change - every generation of TF user should have to suffer through Joseph's invasive editing - it's like a rite of passage.
 
  • #47
Private messaging a user before a mod edits a post is just ridiculous, I am honestly shocked how many people suggested such a thing. You want your PM box to fill up faster or what? ???

Publicly editing the posts using moderator powers and changing user's words is obviously deeply offensive to many.

Publicly posting your thoughts and corrections (moderator or otherwise) in a separate post within that thread almost always leads to lengthy and informed taxonomical debate.

Leaving incorrect nomenclature confuses people that are new to the hobby and makes us look like filthy casuals (I am [as filthy as it gets]).

It confounds matters worse - Joseph - when you have edited somebody's thread (perhaps a very respected and knowledgeable grower) and you aren't actually even correct! Or you are taking some fantastical hardline stance towards unregistered hybrid names that have been in use for many decades. These are the sorts of things that really get people upset, and it doesn't even speak to the fluidity of this hobby that you yourself just mentioned. This is why it would be much better to leave it to its own separate post where it can be totally yours and others can chime into the debate without already feeling that they were violated.




This is the most important thing to remember. I see a lot of people talking about their rights as humans and getting all worked up over this. Have you forgotten where you are? This is the internet. We use fake internet handles in place of our actual names so that we don't have to own up to the things we say. We can lead dual lives where we are someone completely different than who we actually are! Ironically Joseph is one of the only people on this whole forum who goes by his actual name and then has to own up to things he's done personally.

It's been said many times that these sorts of issues can create an unwelcoming atmosphere that inhibits other members from joining, contributing or speaking up. The sentiment continues that perhaps even people that are already posting will feel the need to stop posting here or leave the forum altogether. I would like to remind those of this train of thought that it is rarely a moderator or administrator's actions that create an atmosphere of unwelcomeness - it is the actions of other user's. I have watched more people leave this site, take breaks of activity, or be generally discouraged from using Terraforums because of the behavior and attitudes of other members than I have because of any moderator's actions. So next time some of you are ready to start a lynch-mob over Joseph's editing, take a look at yourself and ask yourself - am I being pedantic, oppressive, and unfriendly to noobs?

TL;DR

Nothing should change - every generation of TF user should have to suffer through Joseph's invasive editing - it's like a rite of passage.

Hey, did someone remember to bring the rope?
 
  • #48
Hey, did someone remember to bring the rope?

I've already attempted to start this one up too many times before. I'm done trying to lynch Joseph, it's been years. I just re-edit my post if I don't like his changes.
 
  • #49
Nothing should change - every generation of TF user should have to suffer through Joseph's invasive editing - it's like a rite of passage.

I burst out in laughter when I saw this, sorry if this comment doesn't contribute at all to this discussion.
 
  • #50
Butch, your situation with this is akin to my own experience. Pretty much exactly the same circumstance, only involving different plants.

I guess my biggest question here is:

What makes Joseph the absolute authority on carnivorous plant taxonomy and nomenclature on TF ?

I certainly don't believe he is. He's proven his ignorance of many species time and again yet he still feels compelled that it is his duty to force these antiquated names down the throats of members via his parasitic post edits and thread derailments. I have belonged to many other forums over the years (both plant and animal forums) and have never witnessed behavior like this from a moderator on any of them. In fact, I've never seen a mod kick up such a stir as this with their methods of bulldozing their opinions and misinformation on any forum anywhere. As John stated in in earlier post, moderators are here to keep the peace and that is the last thing he is doing with the methods he's chosen use. There is nothing "moderate" about what he's been doing here.
 
  • #51
If you think about it, anyone who is new to TF and new to CP, might visit TF and automatically assume, everyone here were more familiar with CP than they are. They might go into, newbie pupil mode, absorbing everything they read, and incorporating it into their developing personal CP databank - I did. Of course, I'm assuming other newbies may be similar to how I was. If they see "junk" (incorrectly spelled or written CP names), they could assimilate this into that databank, so later we get - junk in = junk out, and so do they. This is a great disservice we do for newbies, no matter how well meaning we are, or what our reasoning may be. In reading the many complaints, here, I can't help but think that many cannot remember how it was when they were newbies. Of course, few seem to connect miswritten names to misidentified plants, but that is a big part of the issue that develops. As a moderator, I try to think of everyone that may be audience to what is posted on TF, and accommodate their expected needs - even if they may not ever be aware of it, themselves. If we were just writing posts in our personal blogs, no big deal. But, TF is an international database that is open 24/7/365 to anyone, anywhere, forever (if it persists). Do we really want to teach newbies, garbage, or to be known to our posterity for writing garbage? In saying and thinking about this, I'm talking to myself as much as anyone. I want to be known as a defender of our precious CP and helping to keep them correctly identified. I don't want to be remembered as one of those guys who doesn't really care how accurate we write CP names. I've created my fair share of "junk". I have determined to reduce the amount of junk I create, and do my best to help others, too. I think of us as a community. Whatever any of us does, reflects on all of us.

I certainly don't know a tiny fraction of what there is to know about CP. And I am acutely aware of those limitations. Due to this, I still often find myself in a novice pupil mode. I am quite frequently reminded of this, most recently in a Heliamphora thread. Where I saw plants being called by nonstandard abbreviations of their species epithets. I wanted to know what plants were actually being discussed, so I looked up those abbreviations in the CP Database, to see if I could identify them. I tentatively identified them, correcting the names, and spelling them out. Later, others, including the OP, illuminated the thread more completely as they explained they were following a newly published taxonomic update. This thoroughly assisted me in updating my novice pupil databank, and I'm sure, many others did theirs, too. Not everyone can be as up-to-date as we'd like to be, without a little help from each other.

So, do many of you feel that mods should PM you, so you can decide to correct your own typos? For instance, if you type D. Capensis, and you actually meant to type, D. capensis, you want to be PM'd, so you can decide if you want to correct that, or not, of your own volition?
 
  • #52
If you think about it, anyone who is new to TF and new to CP, might visit TF and automatically assume, everyone here were more familiar with CP than they are. They might go into, newbie pupil mode, absorbing everything they read, and incorporating it into their developing personal CP databank - I did. Of course, I'm assuming other newbies may be similar to how I was. If they see "junk" (incorrectly spelled or written CP names), they could assimilate this into that databank, so later we get - junk in = junk out, and so do they. This is a great disservice we do for newbies, no matter how well meaning we are, or what our reasoning may be. In reading the many complaints, here, I can't help but think that many cannot remember how it was when they were newbies. Of course, few seem to connect miswritten names to misidentified plants, but that is a big part of the issue that develops. As a moderator, I try to think of everyone that may be audience to what is posted on TF, and accommodate their expected needs - even if they may not ever be aware of it, themselves. If we were just writing posts in our personal blogs, no big deal. But, TF is an international database that is open 24/7/365 to anyone, anywhere, forever (if it persists). Do we really want to teach newbies, garbage, or to be known to our posterity for writing garbage? In saying and thinking about this, I'm talking to myself as much as anyone. I want to be known as a defender of our precious CP and helping to keep them correctly identified. I don't want to be remembered as one of those guys who doesn't really care how accurate we write CP names. I've created my fair share of "junk". I have determined to reduce the amount of junk I create, and do my best to help others, too. I think of us as a community. Whatever any of us does, reflects on all of us.

I certainly don't know a tiny fraction of what there is to know about CP. And I am acutely aware of those limitations. Due to this, I still often find myself in a novice pupil mode. I am quite frequently reminded of this, most recently in a Heliamphora thread. Where I saw plants being called by nonstandard abbreviations of their species epithets. I wanted to know what plants were actually being discussed, so I looked up those abbreviations in the CP Database, to see if I could identify them. I tentatively identified them, correcting the names, and spelling them out. Later, others, including the OP, illuminated the thread more completely as they explained they were following a newly published taxonomic update. This thoroughly assisted me in updating my novice pupil databank, and I'm sure, many others did theirs, too. Not everyone can be as up-to-date as we'd like to be, without a little help from each other.

So, do many of you feel that mods should PM you, so you can decide to correct your own typos? For instance, if you type D. Capensis, and you actually meant to type, D. capensis, you want to be PM'd, so you can decide if you want to correct that, or not, of your own volition?
I completely disagree with using pm to address this.
I think the way to handle an alleged mistake posted on a public forum is with a post in the same thread respectfully offering the alternative information. This is not the job of mods, although they are not necessarily precluded from doing so. It's the job of any member with the information to put it out. It's the job of the mods to see that things stay within whatever guidelines on forum behavior the forum operator sets.
 
  • #53
What makes Joseph the absolute authority on carnivorous plant taxonomy and nomenclature on TF ?


Nothing. What Joseph has brought to us is years and years of this activity and as far as I know, no issue with it. Until this recent return of his after his (I'm not even sure how long) leave from the forums... It's not a "job" he was ever given, it was one he took on and again, as far as I could tell, one that people found useful. I'm not positive whose names are right or anything- I'm not the guy to keep up on all of that. I believe some are taking the names that have been published in books or something as the "new name" but are they? Do we have to wait for some International Association for Plant Taxonomy to give their blessing/approval first?...or is it just instantly so since someone says so....? I have no idea, I don't claim to know. ;)

I wanted to understand why it was fine for so many years, and not now and that's why I opened this discussion, my guess is the change in the internet and "netiquette" (internet etiquette :p).

Anyway! Thanks to everyone for expressing your feeling and such, if this is something that you've had issues with "for years" what can I say other than you've not brought it to my attention. I've said it so many times about so many things, don't think your comments in your post are being seen by the people it needs to be seen by, or comments to your friends in the chatbox... Please bring concerns to me or a mod, if it's with a mod or actions by a mod... then come to me. I've heard of people leaving TF for this or that, all things that have never been brought to my attention, but I'm expected to know it is an issue. ???

Here is my conclusion... Posts will not be edited for nomenclature, if mods (or members!) feel they would like to continue this word, I would say they are welcome to PM the user OR post a new reply if they feel the error is strong enough/frequent enough to warrant it. But these efforts will be from users who may or may not be moderators and their PMs/posts are not from a moderator stand point but rather people who care about the correctness of the posts enough to take the time to do so. I realize sometimes that can make a topic go off topic, feel free to contact a moderator or admin and we are all able to "split" a post and make that nomenclature discussion it's own topic to help keep the topic, well, on topic. I know some here said they don't want a public reply... Hopefully the people that are helping (PMing and posting) can keep these people in mind and try to work with them in the method they would prefer, but I also hope that those people can understand if their preferred method is not always used.

I know this isn't a solve all for all of you, and I'm sorry. But I'm confident that you can appreciate the efforts put into trying to figure out what to do in instances like this. Maybe we could even come up with some type of message or code for our signatures to let people know our preferred method.... if you really really really want people to use a certain method. I'm open to any and all modifications of my posts. If you have access to modify my post for correctness, please do so- I have already admitted I'm not up to date on all of that. Those of you that can't, PM me, reply to the post, email me... whatever.

Thanks all for your time and efforts put into this discussion. Sure it's not on plants (well, the plants themselves) but I always enjoy a good healthy discussion with you, and I hope you like having it with me/us! :-O

Andrew
 
  • #54
Thanks Andrew, I think that is a reasonable middle ground for everyone.
 
  • #55
I've already attempted to start this one up too many times before. I'm done trying to lynch Joseph, it's been years. I just re-edit my post if I don't like his changes.

I could have, locked each post after my edits, but I don't, and aren't even considering doing so. If someone were to revert my edits, I might be inspired, then, to make my own post, explaining myself, if I felt strongly enough about it - I haven't, yet. The vast majority of my edits are simple, typo corrections, such as inserting the single quotes for registered cultivar names, or adjusting the capitalization. The first edit to correct nomenclature, I ever performed, was when a newbie started a thread, and was abbreviating the plant he was discussing, calling it - D. cap. If I remember correctly, I believe I PM'd him, to ask which Drosera he was referring to, by use of that abbreviation. I'm fairly certain that it was Drosera capensis and not Drosera capillaris.
 
  • #56
I think the way to handle an alleged mistake posted on a public forum is with a post in the same thread respectfully offering the alternative information.

Yes - THIS.
 
  • #57
Is it possible for the notification of a change that was made to be invisible? If the change is for small things like grammar or spelling errors than maybe it would be best to have the edit tag be invisible so it doesn't look like the person was corrected.

Edit:
I think the best way to go about this is to just edit the post for tiny errors that have nothing to do with the nomenclature itself. That means no reason stated at the bottom.

For larger adjustments: a PM or respectful post in the thread would be appropriate IMO.
 
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  • #58
Paul, I believe you were advocating for private contact about corrections?

Luca, I can set the edit as invisible.... If people could agree that small edits like that are fine, it's fine by me. Maybe we'll run a poll on this....
 
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  • #59
I can't help but think that many cannot remember how it was when they were newbies

The idea that somehow newbies will be hopelessly lost and confused is insulting. I'm by no means an experienced grower, but I do consider myself to be of average intelligence. It's not rocket science to determine that "nep" refers to Nepenthes.

Anyway... Thank you, Andrew, for coming up with a reasonable solution.
 
  • #60
I agree that careless typos can and maybe should be edited, e.g, if someone types Dorsera instead of Drosera.
 
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