Buying plants with restrictions on them

[Barry-Rice]

Hey Folks,

I recently saw a for-sale list of CP that a private grower was circulating around. You know the sort of list---we see them all the time. Anyway, this grower (who's identity shall go nameless but is easily guessed) demands that the terms of sale include the requirement that the purchaser cannot propagate plants and give them to third parties. In effect, this is like he is demanding a patent on the plants.

Well, I have a big chunk of change in my pocket that I was thinking about spending on some plants, but I just can't agree to the stipulations. So...I'm going to spend the money elsewhere. But I'm wondering---does this kind of demand seem acceptable to you?

Please, let's not let this discussion degenerate into ad hominem (personal) attacks against this person...I'm really more interested in the spirit of plant trading in CP culture.

It sort of reminds me of some trades I've made of extremely rare material. For example, those few people I've given divisions of Sarracenia 'Adrian Slack' have also gotten requests from me that they give two free specimens of the plants to other growers before they start selling them. So I suppose maybe I've done the same sort of thing, but just in the direction of encouraging easy distribution of plants. I'm just not sure....

Anyone have thoughts on this stuff?

Barry

 

[Ozzy]

I have opinion. I don't know who this person is, but I can guess.

Anyway the only reason to make this demand is to build up his own ego. He wants to keep the plants rare so that he feels more important because he has plants that is hard to get and he wants to keep it that way.

If he cared about the plant instead of his reputation he would want the plant to spread as far as possible.

As long as we try to keep plants rare, the longer poaching will be a problem.

I guess poaching won't be a problem for long because as soon as we develop all the cp site's there won't be anything to poach. We need to spread the plants around as much as we can so we can make sure it survives into the next generation.

 

[nepenthes_ak]

hows he going to keep control over some one who trades them?

Cheers

 

[unknownclown]

to me it sounds like a crock of.... well Im sure you can guess without me ending the phrase! Its just plain silly to make a request like that on a plant youre selling, trading or whatever! If this person wants to keep this plant to his or her self then why bother selling it? And what if ya do propigate it, is this person going to demand the plant back? If so Id say fine and take another cutting!

Only cause Im a brat like that though

 

[Bugweed]

Barry, Once you own the plant, he can scream til the cows come home, but you can do whatever you want with those plants. Once they are on your turf, the decision is up to you.

 

[unknownclown]

to me it sounds like a crock of.... well Im sure you can guess without me ending the phrase! Its just plain silly to make a request like that on a plant youre selling, trading or whatever! If this person wants to keep this plant to his or her self then why bother selling it? And what if ya do propigate it, is this person going to demand the plant back? If so Id say fine and take another cutting!

Only cause Im a brat like that though

Im guessing the person is in it just for the money

 

[BigCarnivourKid]

Quote[/b] (Barry-Rice @ Mar. 15 2006,6:34)]... this grower (who's identity shall go nameless but is easily guessed) demands that the terms of sale include the requirement that the purchaser cannot propagate plants and give them to third parties.

Barry, I get a bit upset when I see that sort of stuff. If I buy a plant, it's mine. If it's mine you can't tell me what to do with it. I should be able to share it or not as I please with like minded friends and individuals. His statement makes it obvious to me that he is in it only for the money. The plants are just a commodity to him and not something to be treasured and shared with others who would also enjoy their beauty and form. If they were not a commodity to him why would he make a stipulation that makes him the only source of these plants. If that's they way he feels about them he can keep his *darn* plants

!

*Note* I used a slightly stronger stronger word than darn! Silly filters

EDIT: UKC, We must have been reading each others mind

!

 

[JBL]

If this grower has plants that are rare in cultivation, and wants an opportunity to sell as many as they can, they should hold off selling until they propagate enough themselves. Then they should market in a way to get the most they can in one shot because in this caring, sharing CP community, that's the only chance they may get.

If they want to be one of the few who owns it? Well, life is fragile my friend, they could go any minute. If the plant isn't shared, not much of a legacy is left. I know that might sound a little dramatic and overstated, but it can and does happen--all the time.

 

[nepenthes_ak]

Why not spread the love?

Cheers

 

[JBL]

Quote[/b] (nepenthes_ak @ Mar. 15 2006,10:01)]Why not spread the love?

Cheers

I feel some song lyrics coming on. See, if you spread the love, you might 'Catch My Disease'

My head is a box full of nothing
and that's the way I like it
My garden's a secret compartment
and that's the way I like it

 

[Houstonherp]

Hi Barry -

To me, this is worse than acting like you have a patent on the plant. At least if you had a patent, you would get the plant out to others! A 'No Grow' clause? Absurd! I agree with Bugweed...get the plants and throw caution to the wind. The growing and SHARING of plants is what drew me into the wonderful world of CPs. Don't lose sight of this just because someone thinks they can tell you what to do with a plant that you have paid for.

Go for it! Then share all you get with me! LOL

Mike

 

[Pyro]

I am of the opinion that any true CPer who actually is in it for the plants will work to get rare plants out there as fast as possible. Putting a "strangulation rule" on certain plants has the opposite effect so I do not see how the person selling could be seen as being interested in "helping" the community or the plants.

 

[droseraguy]

Interesting topic, what about the "patented" or "trademarked" varieties ? I realize there are only a few of them but do we trade these guys ?

I recall a big stink in the greenhouse industry several years ago with the patent rights of geranium varieties. The whole thing was a mess since every cutting from the stock parent plant was to be paid royalties on of about $0.03 each. (as far as I know it still is this way and rightly so) Some people didn't pay and they went to court to settle for so much etc... Some honest guys paid and sucked it up as cost of business. Then the growers from a different country didn't pay at all since the patent rules didn't apply and shipped in a buch cheap. Messy bunch of business.

As far as I'm concerned if someone takes all the time to breed and patent a fantastic, stable variety then I'll pay royalties if the plant warrents being collected. It really is unprofitable for these guys though unless they get a contract grower to TC a gazillion and send them out to wally-world to be resucued by all of us !

Does anyone know the legalities of shipping drosera seed internationally ? I'm curious about sending some to a friend in a far away land and receiving some in return.

 

[mabudon]

I think I agree with most other folks who've posted so far, I think it's RIDICULOUS

Barry, what you did was in no-wise the same thing- if you had included a clause where the person was not allowed to give anymore than 2 plants away, after which they had to charge a rate (set by you I guess) for any material distributed after the first 2 "freebies" you may be in a similar spot... and I would also commend you for your choice of actions, by simply avoiding the seller due to your inability to follow their goofy wishes and spending your money elsewhere, you are taking a very morally responsible stance on the issue, Bravo!!

As for people who put work into making cultivars, whoever posted that the best way would be to try to get the large supply and get all the possible profit out of the initial offering has it about right, that is really the only way I can think of, due to the possibilities mentioned by droseraguy or international chicanery etc.

But overall, anyone with a naturally occurring (albeit possibly even extremely rare) species who tries to tell anyone what they can or can't do with the species is pretty much nuts in my books

By the way, are the plants of which you speak painstakingly hand-made crosses made by the seller etc, or simply rare species which certain types want to keep to themselves for (seemingly) selfish reasons?? That may colour the debate slightly depending on the response

 

[Rubra]

The sad thing is this is exactly what's happened with most of the agriculture industry.

Peter

 

[rattler]

lol i was going to post something on here about this when i first saw it last month, infact Pyro and I had a conversation about it via email and i involved another person that i thought had a personal interest in the situation. aparently it did no good going by this weeks list. i personally thought about purchasing some of the plants with the express interest of dividing/reseeding as much as possible to get them in as many hands as possible but i decided ive already have to many irons in the fire and didnt feel like lining the individuals pockets with my hard earned cash even if it would be fun to torque him off.

i say its idiotic but than again Tamlin took me under his wing when i first joined here and i would hate to think i would take part in something that goes so far against his beliefs as far as CPs

 

[Barry-Rice]

Hey Mabudon,

The plants are not plants that were developed by the grower. Rather they are pure species that are very rare in cultivation.

For clarification, the text from the person's sell list reads:


-TRADE RESTRICTIONS: The plants marked ** are for sale to the end user only.  By purchasing them from me, you agree not to provide these varieties or propagated material of these to others by any method (sale, trade, donation, etc).  I'm not a commercial nursery.  I spend the little free time I have doing this out of a love for carnivorous plants.  My sales help support costly expeditions to find and study CP in remote locations and help fund the acquisition and propagation of new material for you and others to grow and enjoy.   Few people contribute to these necessary causes and I don't think that's fair.  Your contributions are very important and will help support this whole process.  If you don't agree with these terms, please don't request any plants from me.  If other people ask you for these plants, please ask them to contact me directly.
-CULTIVAR REGISTRATION: You agree not to register or relabel any plants you acquire from me as cultivars unless I provide my full cooperation and written consent.


Now the seller doesn't actually specify what percentage of the sales goes to the research, etc. So that claim is a bit dicey.

Also, I point out that once a person distributes a plant without a cultivar name---according to the official cultivar rules set out in the ICNCP---that is sufficient permission for anyone else to register a plant as a cultivar. So the "cultivar registration" requirement is, again, an additional requirement not supported by the cultivar registration process.

There's no question that this person is asking for all sorts of restrictions. The whole thing is distasteful to me, HOWEVER, I sort of think that if you enter into the financial transaction with the agreement that you will abide by the rules of the transaction, violating them would be breaking your word.

It's an interesting situation. So much of my pleasure in growing plants comes from giving the plants to others, so I decided I was simply not interested in the plants because of these restrictions.  

Hmm.

 

[Barry-Rice]

Hey Folks,

Another analogy:

I've taken some folks to sensitive carnivorous plant sites with the explicit request that they did not share the location information with other people. Furthermore, I've been taken on trips to locations with the agreement I wouldn't reveal the locations to other people.

In this case, information, and not plants, was the restricted commodity. Yet I agreed to those "transactions."

Hmm, maybe I've had an epiphany. When it comes to uncertain bargains, I always err in the direction of protecting or improving the situation for the plants, instead of the pleasure or amusement of my fellow humans. Asking other growers to propagate Sarracenia 'Adrian Slack' before selling it, or to keep mum about location information, is done to help the plants. Maybe that's the difference for me.

Barry

 

[rattler]

Quote[/b] ]The whole thing is distasteful to me, HOWEVER, I sort of think that if you enter into the financial transaction with the agreement that you will abide by the rules of the transaction, violating them would be breaking your word.

in general i fully aree with you Barry, but given my personal feelings and history with this individual it actually doesnt bother me a whole lot moraly. but like i said i decided against lining his pocket with my money reguardless

 

[mabudon]

Barry- right, then you made the right choice... I think it's important to share with all who are interested as well.. granted, I don't have anything fantastic, but I have given away every specimen I don't "need" and have tried to propagate everything I can, in hopes of sharing it with others so that they can gain experience and enter the hobby in full form someday...

Considering the generousity I have encountered so far in the hobby, it isn't a rare thing..
It is hard to imagine someone wanting a rare species to remain so rare as to be in danger of extinction even once they are in cultivation- unimaginable, almost...

Glad to have helped jog an epiphany of some sort Doctor, even if only in some small way, the concept of being "stewards of the earth and the wonders therein" is sorta direct when done by sharing endangered species and ensuring their very existence in some cases...

Anyways, just my 2 (Canadian) cents
Good topic!!