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The immigration issue -- my $0.02

  • #101
the only way to finanace socialized medicine is with higher taxes. im sorry it would be cheaper for me to pay for health insurance. i now have insurance(as of April 1) after being without it for 6 years. i am more interested in paying for insurance out of pocket than for socialized medicine. and i paid for a lot of expensive ER visuts and doctor bills in their entierty while i didnt have insurance.

if our taxes hit 50% i cant afford to make house payments, i cant afford gas to get to work, hell i couldnt spend the extra money to grow CP's. socialized medicine is not the answer. what needs to happen if for juries to quite awarding millions upon millions of dollars for things that were a simple mistake or just plain idiotic stuff. money doesnt make things right. i figure if its an actul incident worth a family winning the lottery, the doc's malpractice insurance gives them a few hundred thousand, pays their medical bills and than the judge yanks the docs licence no more problems. ppl also need to realize accidents happen and are not an instant winning lottery ticket
 
  • #102
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I duno about the myths you claim are there, but I have been told by doctors that the bad off patients are put on the back burner.  Maybe your fiancee hasn;t had a very life threatening illness yet and hasn't experienced it yet

Members of her family *have* had such illnesses, and the UK's Health Service treated them very well.  I suspect you've been mis-informed by those who are biased against the system.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]See you have to realize that these doctors with offices have to pay those people from the money they make.  You don't realy think those people work for free do you?  They are paid by the Dr when he gets paid by insurance or medicare or the patient, so they do have to worry about money.  Thats just like asking a business man not to worry about money and hire all the people he wants in his company.  That company will go belly up really fast.  Dr are no diferent.  THEY HAVE TO EAT TOO, and pay for their staff.  

So do other people, and for many people, they actually have to choose between 'eating' and 'seeing a doctor' because of the outrageous prices.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Would you spend your entire life till your 30-35 just to make 50,000-70,000?  I don't think so.

Bzzt, wrong.  I *am* doing precisely that.  4 years of college, 2 years of MS, 5 years of Phd then 4-6 years of post-doctoral work before I even have a *chance* of getting a position that pays 50,000 per year.  I know full professors who make barely more than 70k.

Years of school do not automatically entitle you to a large paycheck.  Especially when that paycheck has to come out of the pocket of people who have no choice but to pay.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Many of those good DR come here to study and go home to practice because WE ARE THE BEST IN MEDICINE!  We produce the best Dr in the world.  Why do you think many are coming here to be tought.

I contend that our status as the best in medicine has much more to do with the US's postion as a scientific powerhouse than with the economic aspects of our medical system.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ] Now the long 7 hour wait your fianceee had to wait was because of all those people using the ER as a primary care facility.

Which wouldn't happen if we actually provided people with primary care.  

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]How is it disscrimination?  They should not be here in the first place. Why is it my responsability to foot the bill to educate them?

Did you even read my prior post?  You aren't footing the bill; they are.  They're paying for it - it's included in every rent payment.  Schools are funded with property taxes.  If you own a home, you pay property tax.  If you rent a home, the landlord pays the tax and passes the expense on to you, the renter.  So an illegal immigrant renting an apt is contributing to the local schools.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]We will not have the level of reseach going on for new medicines.  We will not have the ammount of medical breakthroughs we have today.  they will not go away, but there will be less going on.

I think that's baseless alarmism.  Where do these breakthroughs come from?  From doctors offices? No.  They come from medical universities and from companies.  The former don't work from profit at all, beyond tuition; once you publish, it's public domain.  The latter will just be getting the money from the government rather than the hospitals, so no big difference.

Besides, American medical inovation is dead; it died when certain parties forced through neandethal laws just eliminate the most useful area of medical research in the past century.  If I need a heart transplant in 20 years, I'll just go to Europe, becuase at least there they'll be able to grow me a new heart in a jar using my own cells and no waiting lists, while in the US I'd be forced to rely on a system that thinks simple tissue culture procedures are 'evil'.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Ever wonder why meds cost more here?  I;m not saying I agree with it by no means.  Hell meds are too expencive, but these companies cannot sell these drugs for those prices in canada or europe, and once we go that same route it will be the same here and then all most all the funding will go bye bye.

Meds cost more here because they can get away with it, and because they spend assloads on advertising drugs so that the *private* healthcare system will prescribe them.  The funds that go towards research are a small portion of the drug prices being charged.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ] Not to mention over in the UK and Canada, from what I hear, the tax rate is like 52%.  Correct me if I am wrong Canadians, but thats what I remember reading or hearing or something, and thats to pay for the socialized medicine and other public health things.  Thats also why cigarrets are 7-8 dollars a pack or more.  

Incorrect; like the US, the UK has a graded tax system (you pay more if you're rich), but it's nowhere near 50% for most people.  That's just another scrap of propaganda spread by those who thing anything less than total lazie-faire capitalism is a sin (in spite of the fact that between VA benefits, medicare, and medicaid, we're already nearly halfway towards a socialized system).

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Personaly I am not trying to give the goverment any more control over my action than they already have.  I don't like the fact of having Big Brother thinking he always knows what is best for me.  Sometimes they don't even know what is good for theirselves.  What makes them think they know whats good for me.

I could say precisely the same thing about HMOs and other medical insurance systems.  At least the government is only the victim of accidental incompetence, rather than purposeful greed.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]the only way to finanace socialized medicine is with higher taxes. im sorry it would be cheaper for me to pay for health insurance.

Are you sure about that? Our taxes already pay for many socialized medical programs, and the increase necessary for a total system is probably minor compared to what we waste invading countries to steal their oil.

Mokele
 
  • #103
"Well April, All I will be able to say when we do turn to socilaized medichine is good by bank account and hello substandard medicine.  We will not have the level of healthcare we have now. "

How do you figure that?  

"We will not have the level of reseach going on for new medicines. "

Drug companies do most of the drug research in this country, with Universities picking up most of the rest, paid for by grants from proffesional groups, foundations and the NIH. Europe and Canada set prices for the drugs. So, this means that americans pay for the research done by the drug companies, and everybody else gets cheap medicine.  

"We will not have the ammount of medical breakthroughs we have today"

Medical breakthroughs are generally driven by researchers at Colleges and Universities, and they are very government funded.

"Ever wonder why meds cost more here? "

No, not at all.  It's Laissez Faire capitalism.

And it didn't help that the current administration set up the new drug benefit program in a way that makes it illegal for states to bargain with the drug companies to get lower prices on drugs, like they do in Canada and Europe.  Gee, it almost smells like people in high places are in cahoots with the drug companies.  

"Not to mention over in the UK and Canada, from what I hear, the tax rate is like 52%."

As someone pointed out, this is not correct.

"Thats also why cigarrets are 7-8 dollars a pack or more."

Cigaretttes are $7-$8 a pack in NYC, approaching that in Chicago, and the US doesn't have single payer.

Malpractice suits don't have anything to do with the high cost of medicine or medical insurance...the insurance industry was very heavily invested in the stock market in the 90's, and they lost their behinds. Doctors and patients have been paying for their losses ever since.  

If you're a doctor, and you make a mistake that messes someone up for the rest of their lives, or you accidentally kill someone...darn right you should pay. And pay.

Back to our friends, the illegal immigrants.  Enforce the employment laws.  That's all the country would have to do, if big business and the Chamber of Commerce would let us.  No papers, no work. No need to spend billions building big ugly walls.
 
  • #104
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]How is it disscrimination?  They should not be here in the first place. Why is it my responsability to foot the bill to educate them?

The children of illegal immigrants who are –born-- in the United States are full citizens regardless of the status of their parents.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ] THEY HAVE NO RIGHTS UNDER OUR CONSTITUTION
laws protecting civil rights of citezens appear in the Constitution, yes they do, you betcha. Dont doubt it for a second. Children of illigals born here un the us are no exception. If you doubt that im shure any court would tell you that.

Brown v. Board of Education –

Chief Justice Earl Warren wrote:
"Today, education is perhaps the most important function of state and local governments. Compulsory school attendance laws and the great expenditures for education both demonstrate our recognition of the importance of education to our democratic society. It is required in the performance of our most basic public responsibilities, even service in the armed forces. It is the very foundation of good citizenship. Today it is a principal instrument in awakening the child to cultural values, in preparing him for later professional training, and in helping him to adjust normally to his environment. In these days, it is doubtful that any child may reasonably be expected to succeed in life if he is denied the opportunity of an education. Such an opportunity, where the state has undertaken to provide it, is a right which must be made available to all on equal terms." [12]
-----------
I rest my case
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  • #105
personally and i do honestly mean this. if my wife were to go under the knife and the worst happened, as long as the surgeon was doing the best that he could i would not think of sueing. in my mind the only time i would sue is if the doc was stoned, to darn tired to do the surgery(if this is the case he should say so and opt out unless i am aware of his situation) or just plain stupidity and in which case im not going after $ its his licence i want.

how do you figure high malpractice insurance doesnt figure in? it absolutly has to. i have to figure in the cost of my medical, home and vehicle insurance in my budget. the paper has to figure in property, medical(their share), vehicle ect ect how can the high malpractice insurance not figure in when you have x number of doctors and other health care workers on staff? saying its not a factor is sticking your head in the sand
 
  • #106
[b said:
Quote[/b] ] I don't like the fact of having Big Brother thinking he always knows what is best for me.

Hahaha
 
  • #107
[b said:
Quote[/b] (zac @ May 06 2006,12:37)]flaming oil-covered-crocodiles and all
how 'bout with frickin' LASER BEAMS on their heads?
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  • #108
[b said:
Quote[/b] (JB_OrchidGuy @ May 08 2006,3:49)]I'm not up on aviation so if there are faster cavilian helicopters
Only thing faster is a pack of rocket propelled, flaming oil-covered-crocodiles, with laser beams on their heads.
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  • #109
[b said:
Quote[/b] (altrade212 @ May 06 2006,7:55)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] ] It seems they treat here as Mexico.  Not Arizona.   It feels like an invasion to me.

funny how you say invasion beacuse arizona was at one point part of mexico.. a little "taste of your own medicine" as some would say
Sometimes you hear of Mexicans joking (sometimes not joking) that they aim to get the SW US back by becoming the dominant group here.

Well, one benefit of allowing free public education is this:

By the time they have sent their kids through our schools, and those kids have spent their life culturally immersed in the US, they have become American.

We're kinda like the Borg this way, and it's a good system.
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Sure, there are downsides to it, and other benefits, too. I have no idea how to weigh the good against the bad to decide what policy is best, though.
 
  • #110
[b said:
Quote[/b] (zac @ May 08 2006,3:49)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] (JB_OrchidGuy @ May 08 2006,3:49)]I'm not up on aviation so if there are faster cavilian helicopters
Only thing faster is a pack of rocket propelled, flaming oil-covered-crocodiles, with laser beams on their heads.  
smile_n_32.gif
... on their FRICKIN' heads!
 
  • #111
Well Mokele I dunno if I could spend that long in school to make that kind of money. And also you have to realize a PhD may have the smake or more time legth, but the stress cannot be anywhere near the ones MDs go through. Not to mention they have overhead to pay most of the time as well. A professor doesn't pay this the school does. Now you are correct in that school do get funding from property taxes, but they also get federal funding too. Wasn't that part of the no child left behond things Bush setup? And the drug companies are funding their own research. Through the sales of their drugs that they advertise for to get more funds. Now do I ageree with that? Not really. Other things may be federal funded, but most drugs breakthrough are company funded.

April I agree with alot of what your saying, but I do not agree with socilized Medicine, and don't think I will either. Show me some good envidence to show it will make a difference and I will thnk about it. Everything I have seen says that it is a failure at the present time. Show me some evidnce to the contrary that as a whole it works better.

On the thing of malprectice. Most do not realize what a Dr Must do before the patient is allowed to consent for surgery. They are told there is a chance of infection. There is a chance of this complication or this complication. Now stupid mistakes like a songe left in or wrong leg cut off yes I think they should pay, but not at the level they are getting paid at. I have heard DR tell me they got sued because of a complication that he told them may accure in doing this procedure,a nd the patient still won. Its things like that that burn me up. Here we are trying to save a patient, and they were told this may happen as a result of doing the prcedure, and then they still sue when it happens. Dr are still people and even though they may perform a miricle sometimes they do not all the time, and sometimes what happens is going to happen regardless of anything else. Making a side affect turn into a lotery wining is not the answer. Its just killing the system. A system that does need to be fixed, just not by the way of socialize medicine. BIG BROTHER IS NOT THE ANSWER!

Finch you are correct. Illegal immagrents children born here are US citizens. I just do not agree with that, and think it should be changed. That would be just as bad as someone you know leaving here 9 months prego, and going to a rich country so their child could be born there at their expence and then since that child is a citizen there they are entitles to a % of the say oil money or something like that. ( just hypotheticly speaking) Now they never lived in this country a day intheir life, but yet that child is now entiled to a piece of the pie. I just don't agree with it.

Mekele About the cheaper to pay for insurance than the increase in taxes. It would cost us a HELL of alot more. Think the system is bad now. With csocialized med the DR will run every test in the book, when he should be narrowing it down to the highest suspects first. Thats just an example. More room for corruption there feeding off the system. It was going on at the medical college of GA a hospital here that was state funded till t went private. It was the most wasteful hospital in the area. It will happen again all over once socilized medicine comes in. I can just feel it. Now maybe the fare tax code proposed might bring in enough money to cover it at the current rate propsed, and since it will capture even illegals taxes and tourists then that may be feasable, but I still don't like the idea. I guess its hard for those not in the medical field to understand totaly all that goes on. On that same token I have no experience with socialized medicine other than what I have heard from Dr and on the news. I just know its a little more comlicated than Even I know about, and not a black and white issue. There is a much bigger picture at stake.

April you are right enforce the laws to the emplyers and it will help alot.

Scott and Zac! You and your FRIKIN' Laser beams are FRICKIN' hilarious!
 
  • #112
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]And also you have to realize a PhD may have the smake or more time legth, but the stress cannot be anywhere near the ones MDs go through

You're kidding, right? MDs have it stressful, but not *that* much more. More sleep-deprived, sure, but that's hardly the only form stress comes in. After all, when was the last time a patient that could crush an engine block in their jaws was *hunting* you? Or you had a deal with a patient from whom the merest scratch could kill you within moments?

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Wasn't that part of the no child left behond things Bush setup?

No, that was an unfunded mandate, as is so popular when any politician wants to claim they've done something for education without actually *doing* anything. The federal funding most schools get is paltry compared to local funding via property taxes.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ] And the drug companies are funding their own research. Through the sales of their drugs that they advertise for to get more funds. Now do I ageree with that? Not really. Other things may be federal funded, but most drugs breakthrough are company funded.

Nobody's proposing changing that, and that wouldn't be harmed in socialized medicine; they'd still get their money. They also wouldn't have to waste money on advertising.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Show me some good envidence to show it will make a difference and I will thnk about it. Everything I have seen says that it is a failure at the present time. Show me some evidnce to the contrary that as a whole it works better.

According a 2000 report by the WHO, countries with publically funded health care spend less both as a percentage of gross domestic product and per capita, and have superior outcomes in terms of health of the population as a whole.

http://www.who.int/whr/2000/en/whr00_en.pdf

[b said:
Quote[/b] ] BIG BROTHER IS NOT THE ANSWER!

"Big brother" has nothing to do with this. That response to any socialized system is nothing but a pointless attempt to demonize the other side without cause and play of the emotions of the readers/audience.

If you have to use emotion to make your point, you don't have a point worth making.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I just do not agree with that, and think it should be changed.

I agree. If native-born Americans had to pass the same citizenship test I did, the total voting population would be about 3 million.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]With csocialized med the DR will run every test in the book, when he should be narrowing it down to the highest suspects first. Thats just an example. More room for corruption there feeding off the system. It was going on at the medical college of GA a hospital here that was state funded till t went private. It was the most wasteful hospital in the area. It will happen again all over once socilized medicine comes in.

Funny, since that's *not* what happens in nations with socialized medicine. The failure of a single hospital in that regard is only a single data point, and the failure could be explained by a wide variety of other factors, including the lack of sufficient oversight.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ] I can just feel it.

Feelings are irrelevant. Only data matters, only logic. Only from that standpoint can a correct decision be made.

Mokele
 
  • #113
[b said:
Quote[/b] ] I just do not agree with that, and think it should be changed. That would be just as bad as someone you know leaving here 9 months prego, and going to a rich country so their child could be born there at their expence and then since that child is a citizen there they are entitles to a % of the say oil money or something like that. ( just hypotheticly speaking) Now they never lived in this country a day intheir life, but yet that child is now entiled to a piece of the pie. I just don't agree with it.

But don’t you think that the children shouldnt be punished for their parent's crimes? Because that’s what that would be. Punished to the outcast life of an illegal immigrant.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ] I have heard DR tell me they got sued because of a complication that he told them may accrue in doing this procedure and the patient still won. Its things like that that burn me up.
Agreed. these variables are part of the practice, and the only way doctors can avoid them is to not practice medicine

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]"Big brother" has nothing to do with this. That response to any socialized system is nothing but a pointless attempt to demonize the other side without cause and play of the emotions of the readers/audience.

If you have to use emotion to make your point, you don't have a point worth making.

I disagree that he is trying to “ demonize the other side without cause and play of the emotions of the readers/audience” I think he is simply stating that the big government is not the answer! No more no less
 
  • #114
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I disagree that he is trying to “ demonize the other side without cause and play of the emotions of the readers/audience” I think he is simply stating that the big government is not the answer! No more no less

You can state that without allusions to 1984. To resort to such an extreme example is simple demagogy. To be totally honest, I think Big Brother should be included under Godwin's Law.

Mokele
 
  • #115
***had to look up Godwin's Law*** interesting theory

as far as Big Brother, has the Patriot Act really not hit home with you?
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guess im one who is more interested in supporting ones self than relying on Big Brother
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i am not planning on counting on social security hell ill be surprised if i live long enough
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oh and for the sake of Godmans Law it is all Hitlers fault
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  • #116
Hitler and his Mother!!!
 
  • #118
Malpractice lawsuits certainly do cause a small % of the high cost of medical malpractice insurance, but the major cause is bad financial investments by the insurance companies. If we really wanted to reduce the cost of medical malpractice...we'd outlaw neo-natal lawsuits. You will find the bulk of them there, originating from people whose children weren't "perfect" at birth. And of course, it's all the doctor's fault!

I certainly don't feel an obligation to educate the spawn of illegal immigrants, and I begrudge every cent spent on them...we can't even properly educate the offspring of people who are inner city legal residents.  Can you imagine being proud that 35% of the people in your high school graduated and are only marginally literate?  The children of illegal immigrants, who often arrive not speaking a word of English, exacerbate this problem. Welcome to Chicago Public Schools.  

Mokele wins.

PS...the Post docs at the University I work at make upwards of $40K a year. Profs w/o tenure at least $90K, and the heavy hitters w/tenure, upwards of $250k. There's money to be made in edumacation.
 
  • #119
Mekele I have to agree. I never thouht about some of those other things you go through to get a PhD. My appologies. Maybe I am just looking at things differently I duno. I would love doing something like that. Going through the jungle in search for something or whatnot. I would view that as stressfull atleast not in the terms I was thinking. Yeah the engine crushing thing or the scratch killing you. I can see where thats stressfull, but I duno still seems like a blast to me. Then aain I have not had that opprotunity before either, and its still something to think about that I hadn't thougt about before.

I will look up goodwins law whe I get back from taking my final. No time now. Althought is someone says it reminds them of "Argumentum ad Nazium" . It doesn't sound like a good thing LOL.

April I agree we shouldn't be educationg someone children who shouldn't behere in the first place. I don;t have an answer, and Finch I;m sorry, but thats how I feel they shouldn't have been here to begin with. Cross legaly and I will welcome the children with open arms, but force it upon me and there will be feelings of rejection.

Mokele. I still think feelings should me used to make decisions. What about all those time you knew it in your gut to do one thing, but did the other because of "data" only to be wrong? Well, I know its atleast happened to me a few times.
 
  • #120
[b said:
Quote[/b] ] After all, when was the last time a patient that could crush an engine block in their jaws was *hunting* you? Or you had a deal with a patient from whom the merest scratch could kill you within moments?

Good Gravy, Mokele! What on Earth do you do? Crush an engine block in their jaws? Kill you with a scratch?!!

And I thought my wife was bad......
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