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Survey on Member Religious Preferences

Survey on Member Religious Preferences - Choose what best describes your beliefs

  • Far East religions i.e. Taoism, Hinduism, Confuciousism, Buddhism, etc.

    Votes: 1 3.8%
  • Islamic religions

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Jewish religions i.e. Messianical Jew, Yiddish, Orthodox etc.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Christian religions organized before 1800 A.D.

    Votes: 1 3.8%
  • Christian religions organized after 1800 A.D.

    Votes: 7 26.9%
  • Pagan

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Atheist

    Votes: 5 19.2%
  • Different religion not based on a belief of traditional God(s).

    Votes: 1 3.8%
  • I draw my beliefs from one or more religious traditions to make it my own.

    Votes: 5 19.2%
  • Don't affiliate with a religion or have any interest.

    Votes: 6 23.1%

  • Total voters
    26
  • #261
Hi all

Go to sleep for a few hours and look what happens!

Peter: your post up top there perfectly illustrates the point of my last few pages of posts. You guys are on the same "side", and yet there are those differences...

WPG I wasn't meaning to make fun of your religion, it's called debate, but if you (or anyone else) feels I am belittling your religion then it's time for me to stop. Greater minds than ours have debated this topic and as we all know, neither side will have anything new to say, nothing will be proven conclusively and our respective feelings are all quite obvious to each other.

WPG wrote:

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Since you choose not to believe in God then I don't think you would understand what I am trying to say since you have already made up your mind and have set your standards to that.

In saying this you are wrong - I do not "choose" not to believe in God, I can not believe in God! If I add up the evidence of his existence in my head, it doesn't make sense to my way of thinking.
If you don't understand this, ask yourself what is your favourite colour. If your fav colour is (for example) blue, then ask yourself why you choose not to like red as your fav colour. You can begin telling everyone that you like red best and start wearing red clothing, etc but it won't change the fact that you really like blue better. I cannot make myself believe any more than you can make yourself like a different colour.

Mike, thank you very much for the offer of the notes but my wife attends weekly Bible study here and I have seen her notes. As I cannot accept the Bible as being anything other than a book that was created by the hand of man, the words don't mean anything to me when I read them.

Aaron, good luck dude.
While I have been fighting for a little slack from the others re your beleifs, I too have concerns. You do know that Joseph Smith "read" the plates (which weren't actually seen by anyone other than a bunch of his cronies) by putting a magic seer stone in his hat and covering his face with it? This has been confirmed by the eyewittness accounts of his wife and the other people that he dictated to?
I'm sorry that this will no doubt provide fuel for the mainstream Christians to "dis" you all the more but you're a great person and I'd hate to see all your postivity and goodwill go to waste on something that MAY be a scam. I hope you have done some unbiased research on the basis of your religion and if you have, and you are happy, then good for you
biggrin.gif


Cheers, Troy.
 
  • #262
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Peter: your post up top there perfectly illustrates the point of my last few pages of posts. You guys are on the same "side", and yet there are those differences...

Actually, it illustrates Jim's point.
biggrin.gif

Peter
 
  • #263
[b said:
Quote[/b] (fatboy @ April 19 2004,8:30)]WPG I wasn't meaning to make fun of your religion, it's called debate, but if you (or anyone else) feels I am belittling your religion then it's time for me to stop. Greater minds than ours have debated this topic and as we all know, neither side will have anything new to say, nothing will be proven conclusively and our respective feelings are all quite obvious to each other.

WPG wrote:

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Since you choose not to believe in God then I don't think you would understand what I am trying to say since you have already made up your mind and have set your standards to that.

In saying this you are wrong - I do not "choose" not to believe in God, I can not believe in God! If I add up the evidence of his existence in my head, it doesn't make sense to my way of thinking.
If you don't understand this, ask yourself what is your favourite colour. If your fav colour is (for example) blue, then ask yourself why you choose not to like red as your fav colour. You can begin telling everyone that you like red best and start wearing red clothing, etc but it won't change the fact that you really like blue better. I cannot make myself believe any more than you can make yourself like a different colour.
you come out too strong on others i must say and not knowing who you are can make it seem like you are belittling others. ok you can not believe in God. Okay by your example I will say this. Okay you start wearing red but you like Blue. For some reason you choose the color blue out of all the other colors as if you were drawn to it. You choose to wear the color red. Nobody is forcing you to wear the color or like the color but you do so. The color thing to me is not a good analogy to make b/c that is not a good comparison of the topic at hand. I believe this people choose their own ways there is something in them that causes them not to believe or whatever, but I do believe that it is a choice because nobody is forcing  you to do this or that. I can believe in God and I choose to belive in God. You can not believe in God and therefore you choose not to believe in him.
 
  • #264
and no our respective feelings are not obvious. I can say what i feel you are doing that is also called a debate thank you very much. and who is to say their minds are greater?
 
  • #265
[b said:
Quote[/b] (fatboy @ April 19 2004,9:30)]  
Aaron, good luck dude.
Thanks.  
biggrin.gif

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]You do know that Joseph Smith "read" the plates (which weren't actually seen by anyone other than a bunch of his cronies) by putting a magic seer stone in his hat and covering his face with it? This has been confirmed by the eyewittness accounts of his wife and the other people that he dictated to?
Yes.  I do know.  They were called the Urim and Thummim.  I believe you are referring to the plates when you said only few have seen it, but you could be referring to the urim and thummim.  But, at any rate, you are right.  Only few saw both.  In the beginning intro of the Book of Mormon three witnesses give their witness to the plates.  Interesting to note, is that of those three witnesses ALL of them left the church at different times!  Because they had difficulty with Joseph Smith for different reasons, they left the church.  But, not ONE of those three EVER spoke out against the Book of Mormon.  And even two of them returned to the church many years later!  
biggrin.gif
 Even with bitter feelings towards Smith they stood on their witness that the Book of Mormon had come from God.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I'm sorry that this will no doubt provide fuel for the mainstream Christians to "dis" you all the more but you're a great person and I'd hate to see all your postivity and goodwill go to waste on something that MAY be a scam. I hope you have done some unbiased research on the basis of your religion and if you have, and you are happy, then good for you
biggrin.gif


Cheers, Troy.
Yes, no doubt there will be many quotes from "anti-mormon" literature that will be thrown at me.  And no doubt, no matter which scriptures from the Bible I use to back up my beliefs, they will not agree with me.  Not that they dislike me.  It's only because they don't believe the same things I do, so things I take literally in the Bible they seem to take symbolicallly.  (Namely, the relationship between Christ and The Father)  And the things I take symbolically they take literally.  So, you are right Troy.  Perhaps I have no reason to debate anything anymore.  It hasn't had any effect.  

Sigh, even when I chimed in with them in talking to you about God and trying to make God not look so ruthless and hypocritical about causing lives to end here on earth.  They ignored the fact that I was agreeing with them, and decided to point out the differences between our religions.  Sigh... I guess it's pretty pointless to even answer their questions anymore.  
smile.gif


And, Troy?  About being a positive person and goodwill.  Thanks!  
biggrin.gif
But about being a part of a scam.  Do you really think that my church being a scam is possible?
smile.gif
 The Prophet we have now was not around in Joseph Smith's time.  Do you really think that he became Prophet in 1995 and then learned about the Church as being a hoax and just continued to go on with it?  This man is turning 94.  Instead of living safe and comfortable in the healthy environment of Florida retired, he's traveling non stop.  Not as an Ambassador, but as a Servant.  His wife, who always travels with him, recently collapsed near the end of his most recent trip from exhaustion.  She died a couple weeks ago after being bed ridden from her collapse.  I doubt 100% that our Prophet would compromise the health of his wife, just so he could continue to scam the Church with a supposed largest succesful hoax.  
biggrin.gif
 Haha, it is pretty laughable to think that Joseph Smith would do such a thing.  ONE had he anything to GAIN by faking the whole thing?   TWO had he any ability to create a hoax and get 174 years of Church leaders to chime in with him, and trick 11 million people across the world into believing it?  Despite the difficulty and sacrifice involved in doing so?  
biggrin.gif
 Seriously, that would be much more far fetched than people in South America being followers of Christ in 600 B.C. - 440 A.D.  

Tony, I appreciate your concern.  But, I wasn't duped into anything.  I assure you, I chose for myself.
smile.gif
 

Take care, man.  And take care all of you.  

I'm sorry I am choosing to not answer your questions, Mike and Peter.  It is just, that the scriptures I could use to explain Christ's foreordination and existence before His birth and the existence of us before our mortal births, includes texts that you would argue simply because of the trinity notion.  Not on whether it means we had a premortal existence.  We just have too many different beliefs.  My explanations would sit much better with other Christian churches who share more beliefs with me.  Such as, we are ALL God's children, that there is a Heavenly Father, or even that Christ gift was for everyone and that all could resurrect.  

Thanks for the good time, it was very enjoyable for me to put my knowledge to the test and get some "exercise."

Good luck to you all!
 
  • #266
*Aaron has left the building*
sad.gif


Fatboy I agree with WPG here the colour scenario is probably not a good illustration. I don't doubt that you can't believe in God, that followes the gospel of the elect to a 'T'. Much like the pharo you spoke of earlier it may be that you're heart is hardend by God for His purpose. Which ,by the way, is not hypocritical. WE are as clay pots created for His purpose, how then can the thing which is created complain to the creator why have you made me this way?
 
  • #268
Aaron, we have not just simply been disagreeing to your arguments because of our or your backround. We have been using scripture based arguments the whole time. I just can't beleive things that are fully contradicted by other scripture. If your next argument couldn't have solidly been based on scripture, I can see why you are walking out. If it could, I'd like to hear it.
Peter
 
  • #269
Hi Aaron
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Yes, no doubt there will be many quotes from "anti-mormon" literature that will be thrown at me. And no doubt, no matter which scriptures from the Bible I use to back up my beliefs, they will not agree with me. Not that they dislike me. It's only because they don't believe the same things I do, so things I take literally in the Bible they seem to take symbolicallly. (Namely, the relationship between Christ and The Father) And the things I take symbolically they take literally. So, you are right Troy. Perhaps I have no reason to debate anything anymore. It hasn't had any effect.

That is until your beliefs actually contradict scripture. I have asked you for your comments on the teaching notes and I would very much appreciate your views.
So Aaron, please let me have comments and carry on the debate about the Godhead!
smile.gif
 
  • #270
gosh i hate saying the word Godhead!! lol for some reason I prefer Trinity. It sounds prettier lol. I'm just being silly.
 
  • #271
Hi Wolfpackgurl,
      It does amount to the same thing!
biggrin.gif


Aaron, what do you think of Hebrews ch 9 verse 27?
 
  • #272
The forum says that the last post was made on 4/22, but the last post I see is on 4/20. Does anybody know why?
 
  • #273
maybe someone changed thier mind on religion and deleted thier post??? Heck I have no idea.

Im English by the way
 
  • #274
well when a person votes on the poll it will say that.
 
  • #275
I am also still waiting for a response from Aaron..
 
  • #276
Mike,

I am sorry to keep you waiting.  
smile.gif
I had mentioned that I would be gone in my last post.  The reason I have been staying out of this thread is because earlier there was a good debate going on between you guys and Troy when I chimed in and literally killed it!  
smile.gif
I seemed to suck all the attention towards me and my church.  I felt bad for grabbing the spotlight like that and realized that no matter what I write, there will be more people wanting to debate my comments than the comments of others. So, I felt I needed to give this thread a rest so others could have the chance to speak their minds.  However, unfortunately, I see that nothing has really happened here for quite some time.  

Mike, I apologize if my lack of response seemed rude, but I will try to make up for it and respond real quick to you now.  
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]What do you think of Hebrews ch 9 verse 27?
Well, let me paste that scripture here real quick.  
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]27  And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

(New Testament | Hebrews 9:27)
Hmm, there really is no disagreement here.  I never said men die physically twice or more.  Man will die and after that death there will come judgment.  I agree.

And about your notes you sent me over email.  I am still reviewing them.  Sorry, I haven't emailed you about them yet.  I really wanted this job at a Nursery center, so I took it quickly when the position was open.  It has caused me to have two jobs, working from 8am to 10pm and all this while I have college final exams to take.  
biggrin.gif
 I have been terribly busy.  But I will get you some responses.  I appreciate you reminding me!  

--Aaron
 
  • #277
[b said:
Quote[/b] (unknownclown @ April 25 2004,12:58)]maybe someone changed thier mind on religion and deleted thier post??? Heck I have no idea.

Im English by the way
what do you mean by im english by the way. I'm confused
 
  • #278
Aaron, you've generally done a nice job describing things as you believe them.  Others here have done so, as well.  Then there have been some random potshots that really weren't thought out, or meaningful.  Thus it is in discussions of religion.  I have had similar conversations on more than one occasion, and can say that the one thing i learned from the experience is this:

Religion is not subject to debate.

I have a close friend here at school with me, who is having a friendly conversation via email with a former professor of hers who is atheist, but is regularly irritated by the confidence of those around him professing faith.  He's a very intelligent man, but i think that the suspicion, deep down inside him, that someone else can KNOW something via means he is not familiar with (e.g. the 'spirit of god' - i use that in the most nonspecific sense), really irks him.

This friend and i have discussed in depth the best way to explain our particular beliefs to him, and especially our claim that the existence of a God of order also requires that there be ONE absolute truth, with everything else being only a shade thereof. He himself has put a large emphasis on the (to him) fallacious nature of that tenet, yet it seems to be the one that most appeals to his curiosity.

There are two options:  (1) Tell him what he wants to know in the way he's used to reasoning, seeking to prove all things by 'scientific fact', and (2) ... the right way... tell him that he's missing a few fundamental axioms (namely, the existence of a god, and a knowledge of his attributes), and that further knowledge can really only come by the scientific method subject to these axioms.  That is, that a God as we believe in him, with traits that we ascribe to him, will answer us, if we ask with sincere intention to know and follow.  He will not tell the casual observer, the passing curious.  But yes, one can know.  Seek for proof of the hypothesis via experiment.  Simply follow that approach, and an answer will come.  It won't be via any of the senses that he's familiar with, but that doesn't make it any less valid.  The 'burning in the bosom' or other fruits of the spirit (Gal. 5:22) are how i know that God exists, loves me, and has a plan for my happiness and progress.  And so it can be with anyone and everyone who sincerely wants to know the truth of any principle.

It gladdens me to see this conversation remain relatively good-natured and sincere.  Aaron, i applaud your efforts to debate on a logical and rational basis these concepts.  As i personally have no desire to participate in a debate on religion due to the conclusion i named a priori, i will simply share with those who have sufficient interest in these matters to read all this the only thing that ultimately matters when dealing with the ultimate reason.  Namely, my own personal conviction that i know that there is a God: a Creator, a Father, the most amazing Botanist in the universe, the most incredible Materials Scientist (my line of study) in the cosmos, and the one Entity most concerned with my (or your) welfare, progress, and joy.  I know He has a plan for my happiness, and that there is no bias or prejudice in this plan- it can and will apply to all.  I know He is my Father, with all the connotations of that word, as He is of all humankind.  I know He loved the world so much that He sent his Son to fulfill the most important role in His plan, as onerous as that role was.  I know He speaks to me through the Spirit, through the scriptures, through the actions of many and the voices of those whom He calls, for i do know that He calls prophets today as He has done throughout history.  And i know that by following the scientific method, as applied to spiritual things, by trying the seed and seeing if it will grow and produce fruit.

I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.  I believe in Jesus as my personal Redeemer and Savior, and try (and often fail) on a daily basis to live as a friend of such a Being would do.  Therefore i seek to live up to the title of Christian.  Amen
 
  • #279
Hello,
     Very, very interesting debate. I just read the whole thing, and I see how you all can hold your own religions based on your beliefs. My belief, is agnostic at this moment. Why? Because there are a couple things in the Christian Bible that I seem to have a hard time believing. Number 1 is, I cant understand why this God, put us onto Earth as a test, to get into Heaven, for all eternity. Why not give us 30 years, or 3,000 on earth, why the average age people live today? I just cant understand that for soem reason. Number 2 is, why is this Devil here, and why cant God get rid of him? Is it to test us on our worthyness or something?
Then there are the reasons I do believe in God, in a way. Sometimes I think about, what happens if I died, instantly, would I be floating in a black space, just my brain thinking really? Thats what makes me think I will go to Heaven, etc. to be reunited, and not floating in this "space" thinkign for all eternity.
Could someone kinda clear me up on this? Anybody I asked around here would think I was some Athiest, and tell my Grandparents (who are hardcore Christians) which would not be good. And talkign about religion with someone face to face, is not my think. Thanks.
Kevin
 
  • #280
Hi Kevin, I'll try and answer you questions the best I can.

1. In the early days, people used to live several centuries. With our sin, came death, both spiritual and physical.

2. The devil is used to be one of the most powerful angels. However, he became proud, and was cast down to ****. God will destroy him eventually, as is described in the book of Revelations. Right now, Satan is devoting his efforts to pulling us down and separating us from God.

Peter
 
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