TerraForums - Carnivorous Plant Community
Welcome to TerraForums — a long-running carnivorous plant community established in 2001. Register for free to join the conversation, ask questions, and connect with growers from around the world.
NASC Auction will open in...
Read the rules first :)
NASC auction is OPEN!!
Share this page
, supposedly this works (if it doesn't, it won't matter either)Now Mike! You are not being fair. You have to take several factors in to consideration here and some of them need to be proved. The intensitiy of light in the UK is much more than it is here. The UK is futher north and thus the light is stronger and they have much longer summer days. Also the soil mix (acid) and a friend claims high heat has a good bit to do with color intensity. I am to visit him this weekend and I will report back on that one. My friend claims in his greenhouse it can get in excess of 120 degrees F but with equally high humidity to pervent burning. His sarrs are very intense in color. There still is a great deal to learn about these plants. Keep growing, trying and learning.
That and genetics say whether the plant colors or not. I am still open to the ornata question in Florida, but too many things bear me out as to whether ornatas exist in Florida or not. I also don't think it is a big deal, just another way of looking at the situation. DNA tests will tell, but who here can afford that? Besides, Don Schnell and I like our friendly arguments--we learn a lot that way, and it forces us to try to keep our minds open.
The light is weaker the further north you go! Hours of light are longer in summer, but the light has travelled further from the sun.[b said:
No offence, but I think Mike has forgotten more than you'll ever know[b said:
Alvin,
Yes, it is Mike King I am refering too with the 3000+ plants.
It was my understanding the the Earth was tilted on it's axis and that in the summer the northern hemisphere was closer to the sun thus making the suns rays stronger and creating longer days (i. e. summer). It was this stronger light and longer days that I was refering too. Did I misunderstand something in science class? This maybe a bit off the topic but I think it has bearing on the subject at hand.
Any thoughts on the matter Mr. King?
Yes, it is Mike King I am refering too with the 3000+ plants.
It was my understanding the the Earth was tilted on it's axis and that in the summer the northern hemisphere was closer to the sun thus making the suns rays stronger and creating longer days (i. e. summer). It was this stronger light and longer days that I was refering too. Did I misunderstand something in science class? This maybe a bit off the topic but I think it has bearing on the subject at hand.
Any thoughts on the matter Mr. King?
Hi Brooks,
Well the light here is much less intense! We are 53 degrees north and the maximum sun index we get here is 6!
You have seen the plants, the ornatas are stable and the red tubes are in the same bench, same potting medium with the same light. What i think is that there are plants that are intergrades between rubricorpora and ornata. Ihave these plants too and start out ornata like, but deepen until they are red tubed (F95 is a classic of this from my grow list0, but clones like F35, F36, F87,F88 and F122 all are stable ornatas with no tendency to colour up further.
http://www.mikeking64.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/ssar...._2.html
What I think Bugweed has found are true rubricorporas that were not growing in ideal conditions and we all know how these plants look when not growing ideally. The plants above were selected by Alan Hindle et al for their stability and trueness of form, but with these plants growing in exactly the same conditons, greenhouse, and sharing the same water on the same bench, environmental variations have been eliminated. I guess the true ornata plants without colouring up are hard to find, But Alan Hindle charged top money for these clones!!
I am very much looking forward to our trip together in the US next year and look forward to researching this in the field!
Well the light here is much less intense! We are 53 degrees north and the maximum sun index we get here is 6!
You have seen the plants, the ornatas are stable and the red tubes are in the same bench, same potting medium with the same light. What i think is that there are plants that are intergrades between rubricorpora and ornata. Ihave these plants too and start out ornata like, but deepen until they are red tubed (F95 is a classic of this from my grow list0, but clones like F35, F36, F87,F88 and F122 all are stable ornatas with no tendency to colour up further.
http://www.mikeking64.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/ssar...._2.html
What I think Bugweed has found are true rubricorporas that were not growing in ideal conditions and we all know how these plants look when not growing ideally. The plants above were selected by Alan Hindle et al for their stability and trueness of form, but with these plants growing in exactly the same conditons, greenhouse, and sharing the same water on the same bench, environmental variations have been eliminated. I guess the true ornata plants without colouring up are hard to find, But Alan Hindle charged top money for these clones!!
I am very much looking forward to our trip together in the US next year and look forward to researching this in the field!
[b said:
Sorry, I thought you were being at tad patronising towards our Mr King! A classic example of something on screen sounding different when read back then how it was intended
The north does tilt towards the sun more in summer creating longer days, but the bulge of the earth always means the nearer the equator you go the nearer to the sun you'll be. The north would only receive stronger sun if the earth were a cube not a sphere.[b said:
Back to sarras, and in theory an ornata x rubricorpora should be intergrade and not quite all red tubed. Another thread showed the huge range of colours from one seed pod and two sets of genes. Such a cross could definitely produce an all red tubed plant, but next to it its brother wouldn't have the genetic makeup to turn completely red tubed.
I also have a cross of S.x flava 'Burgundy' x alata which is almost completey red but still veined. It stays like that until October when it turns completely maroon in the tubes. So even in the same season a plant can look very different between the beginning and the end.
Alvin,
I in no way meant any disrespect towards Mike King. I consider Mike to be one of the leading authorities on sarracenias and a friend. Thanks for the clarifacation on the sun intensity in the UK. I stand corrected. It has been 30 some odd years since science class anyway.
I was not even refuting what Mike King has to say. I like Mike, believe that there are pure rubricorpas or pure autropurpureas.(as pure as these can be in a mixed bog) and ornata is a hybrid between rugelli and one of these, which ever is present in the bog. There seem to be varing degrees of ornata-ism due to the mixing of the genes. I do believe that there also exisit plants that look like ornatas that indeed are rubis or autros with out proper acid levels or sufficent sunlight.
I in no way meant any disrespect towards Mike King. I consider Mike to be one of the leading authorities on sarracenias and a friend. Thanks for the clarifacation on the sun intensity in the UK. I stand corrected. It has been 30 some odd years since science class anyway.
I was not even refuting what Mike King has to say. I like Mike, believe that there are pure rubricorpas or pure autropurpureas.(as pure as these can be in a mixed bog) and ornata is a hybrid between rugelli and one of these, which ever is present in the bog. There seem to be varing degrees of ornata-ism due to the mixing of the genes. I do believe that there also exisit plants that look like ornatas that indeed are rubis or autros with out proper acid levels or sufficent sunlight.
What does Mr. Hindle charge for a pure ornata? The L. Wilkerson bog might be a good place to explore this theroy as it has all three forms.
G
Guest
Guest
I'm really liking these discussions. Are these photos appropriately timed, or what?
Both are from very distant sites in Florida.
I really believe that a discussion of flava color patterns is a discussion of purp color patterns. All these nice color forms that we see in flava may be the result of stabilized purp intragression. These two plants very commonly hybridize in the fields of Florida and North Carolina. The hybrids further cross with the species, producing offspring that more closely resemble one of the species.
Inheritance patterns suggest dominance and recessiveness. I believe the variant forms suggested by Schnell are for taxonomic purposes, not genetic. If two clones of rubricorpias are crossed the progeny vary from ornata to rubricorpia. This suggests that the rubricorpia trait is not a genetic marker. In this discussion the veining patterns are a purp characteristic and dominate over the flava ('rugelii') color patterns. How's that for speculation?
imduff
I really believe that a discussion of flava color patterns is a discussion of purp color patterns. All these nice color forms that we see in flava may be the result of stabilized purp intragression. These two plants very commonly hybridize in the fields of Florida and North Carolina. The hybrids further cross with the species, producing offspring that more closely resemble one of the species.
Inheritance patterns suggest dominance and recessiveness. I believe the variant forms suggested by Schnell are for taxonomic purposes, not genetic. If two clones of rubricorpias are crossed the progeny vary from ornata to rubricorpia. This suggests that the rubricorpia trait is not a genetic marker. In this discussion the veining patterns are a purp characteristic and dominate over the flava ('rugelii') color patterns. How's that for speculation?
imduff
I have seedlings from a pure red tube stand which vary in colouration from rugelii, through ornata to red tube, with a continuous spectrum inbetween!
G
Guest
Guest
Here's another image relevant to Garden's comments. Incidently, 99% of the flavas at this site are rugelii.
imduff
imduff
Back to the light intensity issue for a moment . . .
The reduced light intensity at high latitudes happens because sunlight arrives at a lower angle, not because the light has to travel further. Any difference in distance from the sun is insignificant in comparison to the earth's distance from the sun. But light arriving at a low angle, as it does at high latitude, passes through more atmosphere and is projected across a larger area of ground. Leading to much less light intensity on the ground. Weather differences matter a lot too. A fogbound coastal area receives much less sun than sunnier land further inland.
and now, back to the substance of the thread . . .
The reduced light intensity at high latitudes happens because sunlight arrives at a lower angle, not because the light has to travel further. Any difference in distance from the sun is insignificant in comparison to the earth's distance from the sun. But light arriving at a low angle, as it does at high latitude, passes through more atmosphere and is projected across a larger area of ground. Leading to much less light intensity on the ground. Weather differences matter a lot too. A fogbound coastal area receives much less sun than sunnier land further inland.
and now, back to the substance of the thread . . .
I did visit my friend yesterday and checked out his sarracenais and in particular the flavas I gave him back in June. Well, here is the scoop: Heat effects both coloration and growth rate GREATLY! His 'Judith Hindles' were so red there was no variation in the pitchers except for the newly opening ones. The flavas I gave him had autros in the mix and at just 6" tall had highly colored pitchers. Sorry I did not take any pics. (long story) Here is how he grows his: the beds are constantly being flushed with water 24/7 by means of a complex system. (this man is an engineer) The plants are barely in an 1/2" of water. He pots up in pure peat and yes the green house does reach upwards of 130 and the plants sit on the floor. The seedling flavas I gave him were twice the size of mine from the same batch and the same age. DANG!
I am sending my sarra seedlings to summer camp at his place.
I am sending my sarra seedlings to summer camp at his place.
Trent,
To the contrary, Jim grows his plants in 4" black plastic pots, in trays, on concrete. Jim thinks the residual heat from the concrete released over night has something to do with it. It would be interesting to measure the temp inside the pots and see.
To the contrary, Jim grows his plants in 4" black plastic pots, in trays, on concrete. Jim thinks the residual heat from the concrete released over night has something to do with it. It would be interesting to measure the temp inside the pots and see.
According to Rob Saciloto of Botanique, heat is a primary factor in the coloration of the plants, whether in the air around them, and in the soil temps. Cooler rhizome usually means lighter colors, but since these experiments are ongoing, I will let him finish before we have another theory to kick around. I know when my plants get to the hottest time of the season, their colors are intense. And the red/blacks get their best colors, whether alata or flava.
Similar threads
