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Nepenthes Seeds and eBay.

Dexenthes

Aristoloingulamata
This is kind of a heated topic here in the carnivorous plant enthusiast world. We all have our own opinions and beliefs, and I'd be interested to start a reasonable discussion about this.

Must of us that grow Nepenthes might be familiar with trolling eBay for good prices on some of our favorite rare plants.

In conjunction with cuttings, basals or other seed-grown plants that other enthusiasts have grown, there are a number of listings for Nepenthes seeds. There are the obvious and incessant listings that are always there, sort of fantastical prices on fantastic species that have very low if any germination rate. But lately there has been a pretty consistent string of seemingly legitimate listings from a certain someone who lives in Southeast Asia and claims to have freshly obtained seeds of a variety of rare and intriguing species.

This is where the heart of the debate rises.

I personally think that taking these ripe and fertile seed pods of the species or hybrids that we love from their natural environment is (in this situation) totally wrong.

By selling these seeds on eBay for relatively low prices, to anyone who might "buy it now", there is no guarantee that the seeds will fall into "the right hands" - AKA, someone who actually knows how to get the highest germination rate out of the seeds that is possible. More importantly, however, is that aside from the uncertain future the seeds face once listed on eBay, they have been taking from their natural environment, the one place that, all human activity aside, is one of the only places that can ultimately sustain the species existence without the use of electricity, the requirement of greenhouses, or any other sophisticated and technologically based growing tools we would need to grow these plants to maturity.

The argument for the selling of the seeds is that we should scoop up these seeds as soon as possible and start growing them because we cannot trust that their natural environment not be destroyed by our activities.*

* I say we as in Homo sapiens, the species we all are a part of, whether poor Sumatran land-owners who need food, or middle-class United State plant enthusiasts.

I'll wrap things up with a few of my own personal beliefs regarding this subject:

1.) Any seeds taken from these plant's natural environments should be given only to professional Nepenthes growers who have proven their ability to germinate the seeds to their fullest potential. (This does not involve eBay listings)

2.) As much energy that any of us put into buying seeds that have been taken from their environment we should also be putting towards preserving that environment. (This does not involve eBay listings)

3.) We should not as a species just be "giving up" on these most diverse and fertile regions of the world because "we'll probably just end up destroying them anyway." This line of thought makes me cringe, and makes me totally shamed to be a member of the same species that could think this thought.

I do not want to start arguments, but I would like to hear some thoughtful discussion on this subject, so please give your two cents on this topic - it's of great interest to many of us here, perhaps all of us who frequent this sub-forum and I'd be interested to hear how my fellow enthusiasts think about this.
 
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I personally feel that taking a small amount of seeds from the wild is a good investment, since habitat destruction WILL eventually wipe most of these species out, and there really isn't much that the western world can do about it. The local govenments really couldn't care less, and I estimate that in 50 years, none of these habitats will even exist, and neither will the plants that live in them.

Having too much faith and "hoping for the best" will damn these Nepenthes to extinction almost as much as the people cutting down their habitats will.


Unless someone knows a way to make mankind less greedy......even Jesus couldn't pull that one off, so good luck.
 
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I was looking through eBay today, and thought exactly the same thing! Although, I don't think anyone should be entitled to that seed, because the more people buy the seed, the more the person is rewarded for poaching it. If there is any seed collection to be done, it should only be taken in small quantities by nurseries who have the legal documentation to do so. They should then grow these seeds into plants, pollinate them, and pass them on to other nurseries. It may be a slow way of circulating plants, but I would much prefer for things to be 'rare' than 'extinct'. More emphasis could be put on pollinating plants of the same species, so that if the plant is wiped out, there is a good amount of genetically different plants floating around to replant, thus saving a species. Just my view. In summary: more seed grown plants! Our need to own these plants 'NOW' can be damaging, and I think that for the sake of the plants we love so much, we must try and restrain this instinct (however difficult), because who would be more devastated by the loss of these plants, than us?
 
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there really isn't much that the western world can do about it.

The problem is, as the consumers of the majority of the world's resource and the global proprietor of capitalism, there is actually nothing that we haven't done about it.

It's our economic philosophies that have rocketed these burgeoning Southeast Asian countries into adopting destructive and capitalistic motives regarding their forests. (Can we say palm oil?)

As MH1 said, the more we give the green light to these poachers, the more we give the green light to the exploitation of this land.

"Hey, Sumatran poachers! Just send us all the Nep seed before your plow it over with bulldozers, okay? Thanks! ;) "
 
The problem is, as the consumers of the majority of the world's resource and the global proprietor of capitalism, there is actually nothing that we haven't done about it.

It's our economic philosophies that have rocketed these burgeoning Southeast Asian countries into adopting destructive and capitalistic motives regarding their forests. (Can we say palm oil?)

As MH1 said, the more we give the green light to these poachers, the more we give the green light to the exploitation of this land.

"Hey, Sumatran poachers! Just send us all the Nep seed before your plow it over with bulldozers, okay? Thanks! ;) "

Most of the world's palm oil is used in Asian countries, not western ones....for example, in India they use it for everything from cooking to cleaning to fuel.

A few nep growers not buying seeds isn't a big enough change...it really isn't....unless you can stop people from making furniture, eating, building houses, using combustion engines, and plain old reproducing in in huge numbers.....it ain't gonna change a thing.
 
Most of the world's palm oil is used in Asian countries
This is sadly true- most of Madagascar's amazing forests have, ironically, been cut down for the plant they use to make bio-fuel. Now, there are only islands of forests in a sea of crop. But of course, they don't tell you that when you are persuaded to buy bio-fuel. :/
 
Most of the world's palm oil is used in Asian countries, not western ones....for example, in India they use it for everything from cooking to cleaning to fuel.

This I know. But what country is it that has challenged these growing countries to adopt industrialization as their way of life?

And we are still the fifth largest consumers of palm oil. That is worth noting.
 
Well, I think already this is getting way off topic! From Nepenthes seed listings to arguing over palm oil within four posts? LOL

Unless the person is using their screen name from a forum of something, none of us knows who is buying what on eBay. Whether they are geniuses or dolts or what they are doing with their purchases. I've found out after sales that I have sold to both and probably all sorts in between. Would I like everything I sell to go to someone like the doctor in Minneapolis who bought all my old large Neps and not the guy who potted a cutting from my N. hamata in miracle grow and killed it? Certainly but you just can't know who your customers are or in this case who other people's customers are.

If people are concerned enough about the seed listings they can simply report them as a poached items every time they see them posted. That will eliminate a lot of seed grown plants in the hobby but if you really care that much, reporting the listings should certainly be one way to put a stop to it - at least through eBay. It doesn't matter what anyone of us says here about it, eBay is in charge of eBay you'd have to contact them.
 
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This I know. But what country is it that has challenged these growing countries to adopt industrialization as their way of life?

And we are still the fifth largest consumers of palm oil. That is worth noting.

We didn't "Challenge" them to do anything....most of the people over there just don't feel like living an thatched huts anymore, and the govenment funds it's construction by selling timber.


I get sick of misguided people thinking that the US is the axis of evil or something, the countries of the world can be plenty corrupt without our help. :rolleyes:
 
  • #10
Well, I think already this is getting way off topic! From Nepenthes seed listings to arguing over palm oil within four posts? LOL

LOL So true! :p
Unless the person is using their screen name from a forum of something, none of us knows who is buying what on eBay. Whether they are geniuses or dolts or what they are doing with their purchases. I've found out after sales that I have sold to both and probably all sorts in between. Would I like everything I sell to go to someone like the doctor in Minneapolis who bought all my old large Neps and not the guy who potted a cutting from my N. hamata in miracle grow and killed it? Certainly but you just can't know who your customers are or in this case who other people's customers are.

Well the difference between these two situations is that your plants were your own, cultivated by you, I'm sure some of them were TC and some of them SG, but either way they were already removed from their environment.

These seeds on eBay are directly from the mountains themselves. They were but a breeze away from landing on the forest floor that their ancestors have been sprouting on for generations.

If people are concerned enough about the seed listings they can simply report them as a poached items every time they see them posted. That will eliminate a lot of seed grown plants in the hobby but if you really care that much, reporting the listings should certainly be one way to put a stop to it - at least through eBay. It doesn't matter what anyone of us says here about it, eBay is in charge of eBay you'd have to contact them.

I guess that's the thing - I have considered reporting them as being poached. I haven't because I know that at least a few of my fellow growers actually buy from them. But where do we draw the line?

Not that long ago there was a bunch of fuss over some Sarracenia being sold on eBay that looked like they were potentially poached. There was a huge stink created over that, and just as an observer of these situations I am legitimately surprised that I have seen no stink whether on this forum, or another in regards to these Nepenthes seeds.

I guess I'm just wondering am I totally alone in thinking this is wrong? ???


@Exo - Swords is right our discussion got way off topic very quickly, and there's no winning that debate. :banana2:
 
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  • #11
I was having a thoughtful discussion....I was simply responding to statements to the best of my ability. ;)


So if you just wanted opinions, you prolly shouldn't have pointed out how mine was "Wrong"
 
  • #12
I dont rlly want to get into the discussion here, but i have some information that may be relevent.
I asked the seed seller from indonesia (you prolly know who) about his thoughts on conservation etc.
He replied by saying that its not illegal according to cites, he does not take seeds from conservation areas or natural parks and if he takes seeds, he only takes a small portion of the seeds that are there, and he does not tell were the plants are.
 
  • #13
I understand that his poaching is not illegal technically, but I suppose the most important question to ask him is why he does it.

Is it to make money? Or is it to prolong the existence of these plants?

Maybe I'll ask him. But if it was the latter, then one would think that a place like ICPS would be where you'd go...
 
  • #14
a moral post

I have my morals, I got them from my folks.
I have hiked many back country trails here in the Pac Nor West.
When I saw Darlingtonia in the wild for the first time, I wanted so bad to take some home.
But this simple statement from my farther put me on a different path .
"you can take some home with you and probably watch them die, or leave them here and come back another time to enjoy their beuty where it is meant to be".
I do go back now and then just to look at them.
I know of a few local sites that are still very much untouched, with literally walls of CP's cascading down a dripping rock face.
As always...I leave them there.
 
  • #15
Taliesin-DS touched on the subject that I was going to bring up, if it was actually illegal from them to collect seeds from the wild where they live, if not, than it really wouldn't be poaching, but a moral issue if they should or not

I'm with you that the environment shouldn't be raped, but I honestly don't think there really is much that can be done about it
History shows that all to well

As for reporting them to eBay, again it might not be considered poaching where they're at

It really is a supply & demand issues
If they can't sell the seeds on eBay, they'll just find another venue to sell them on {message boards, web sites, etc.} & given that the internet is World Wide
The only real way to stop them would be to kill the demand "World Wide" & that's very doubtful
As long as there's someone somewhere in the world willing to buy them there will be a demand for them & they will continue to do it
 
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  • #16
I think everyone can agree that we don't wish to see plants go extinct in the wild but sadly that appears to be happening in unprotected areas due to industry. However, we can rejoice in the fact that in the hands of capable persons, seed will often have a much higher germination & survival rate in captivity compared to being left to it's own devices in the wild. Perhaps they go extinct in the wild due to deforestation and infrastructure but to survive only in captivity when there is no home range left is at least better than completely extinct I feel.

The low survivability and absence of enough perfect micro-climates is part of the reason Nepenthes, orchids and other "rare" plants tend to create copious amounts of seed yet are still not generally common weeds in their endemic areas. If it's true that this guy is not taking the entire flower stalk and merely part then there should be almost no impact since much of the seed is wasted to the whimsy of the winds anyway. I would certainly see pulling up the mature plants and selling them as a far worse crime against nature than taking some seed pods and getting the plants into cultivation. After all, that's how BE , AW, MT and everyone else gets their initial starter clones - by collecting seed for invitro germination.
 
  • #17
Although it is not illegal via CITES or some other multi-national treaty designed to regulate international commerce to export the seeds it is theft if he does not own the land where the seed pods were collected or have the land owners permission. Public land is not an acceptable location for seed collection without permission as it belongs to the public.

That would be the next question I would ask this fellow.

At least that is my thought on the matter.
 
  • #18
Hi,

Being one of the growers who have purchased seed from this seller, I thought I 'd give my thoughts in this matter. I feel it is possible to grow from wild seed without it having a negative impact on the environment, as long as you do it in a responsible way. As swords mentioned, from all the seeds that is being produced by a plant, only a small part of it germinates, and even fewer grow to adult size in the wild.

Having said that, I have had some concerns myself about this particular seed sale. First off is that some species seed that I have seen being offered came from what is believed to be vulnerable species - for instance - N. aristolochioides, and N adnata. Also, in these cases there weren't just a few seed pods being offered each time, but a huge number. I did not feel comfortable with that, thus I stayed away from these.

Another issue for me was that I saw some species from a certain location being offered time after time, which would suggest that the collector returned to collect all the pods as they matured. If not any of the seeds have the possibility to germinated in-situ - then I feel this practice is unacceptable. However, I have also noticed that after the initial rush by the seed buyers the interest from them eventually waned, and often the seed from that species/location disappeared from the seed sale. Personally, I don't think that the seller/collector have any conservation thoughts, but probably the lowered interest made collection of that particular seed not worthwhile anymore.

I could mention that I do grow tc plants also, so even though I have grow many of my plants from seed, it is not an obsession. Conservation wise the number one way to ensure the survival of these plants is to save the natural habitats, thus saving thousands of other plants, as well as animals.

Regards,

Christer
 
  • #19
Thank you for the valuable input christer, swords, cheez, dashman -

That is the twist. I understand that the seeds wont all sprout in the wild, and that they potentially can have higher germination in the right hands. But as christer said, there are obviously some serious grey areas in regards to this seller, or sellers in general.

I, too, have noticed aristolochioides on ebay for quite some time, and although he says that he only takes a few seed pods, wouldn't those few sell almost immediately and he would be forced to withdraw the listing?

As it stands, there are seemingly copious amounts of this seed on ebay, and as time goes by the harvest date gets further into the past...

One of my greatest passions (dreams) I've ever had and still have is that of conservation, especially in regards to rainforests and even more specifically in regards to Borneo, Sumatra, Sulawesi. I'm ashamed to say that I haven't yet really contributed, or volunteered, or demanded action from myself in order to help preserve that land that harbors all these plants that we love (and as christer said, so many many more species that probably have yet to be described).

But what I can say is that I haven't bought any of these seeds, because it seems (to me) that it is quite contradictory to the vision that I would love to see more than healthy specimens in a greenhouse, and that is a healthy equatorial rainforest.

I can understand organizations, like BE, AW, EP, etc, doing what they do, collecting plants, under the letter of the law, and professionally cultivating them so that those of us in the states or across the world can buy them responsibly. I would be willing to bet there is a large difference between how they do their affairs and how this seller does his.

If I went to a trip to Sumatra, and posted many pics and you all knew of it, and then suddenly mysteriously offered rare seeds for trade or sale, I have a feeling I would be reprimanded, reported, scolded, or possibly banned!
 
  • #20
Christer does hit a good point there. I too have purchased seeds of this vendor (or allegedly the same one) but refrained from obtaining those N. aristolochioides seeds and others because it seemed plain wrong. I must say I wasn't aware of his selling patterns and profile, so I will consider this from now on. On a side note though, there is no such thing bad enough as to result in absolutely no good in this case, at least from my understanding...To be clearer, I believe that the other side of the medal would be that if germinating these seeds results in many neps reaching maturity, then the benefit of disposing of new genes to complement the available gene pool has merit from a conservation point of view, of course if you are willing to share with fellow hobbyists and keep rigorous record on the origins of the plants. I can't recall the HL specie that almost got wiped out of a particular mountain, to which it is endemic, due to a volcanic eruption, but it's events like that and/or anthropic disturbances that can have negative effects on wild populations, so where exactly do we draw the line between strict natural conservation (''let them be'') and conservation through cultivation (which thus maybe optimizing germination and offspring production)? I must say I have no definite opinion on this subject myself. However, in this case, the seller's collecting practices seem to overshadow the optimistic perspective of conservation through cultivation quite a bit...

Fred
 
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