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- Thread starter carcinos
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Carcinos,
It sounds dubius at first, but in nature, the pitchers:leaf ratio are more dramatic than what you see mostly in cultivation. In some of the old CPN issues, the pitchers of some Nepenthes looked like they were longer than the leaves.
If this started right after you got them, I would guess your light levels are really good and you are getting more compact growth. If you have had them a while and nothing has changed, then I admit I have to wait for somebody else's input.
Regards,
Joe
It sounds dubius at first, but in nature, the pitchers:leaf ratio are more dramatic than what you see mostly in cultivation. In some of the old CPN issues, the pitchers of some Nepenthes looked like they were longer than the leaves.
If this started right after you got them, I would guess your light levels are really good and you are getting more compact growth. If you have had them a while and nothing has changed, then I admit I have to wait for somebody else's input.
Regards,
Joe
Light, moisture, temperature levels will all affect the size of the leaves. If it is a well established plant and had no major changes in its environment then I would be concerned.
If they are recent additions then it is very common for the plant to go through an adjustment period because of environmental changes and probably also a recent unpotting and repotting. If this is the case and the plants appear to be growing well and healthy then I would not be concerned.
I am glad to see you noted that pitcher size however is not decreasing as this is also a good way to judge the health of the plant. I find that many new plants I put in my greenhouse often produce smaller thicker leaves while simultaneously producing larger and larger pitchers. Eventually they regain the size they were originally and are producing much larger pitchers at the same time.
Perhaps you can give some information on light and moisture levels and temperature ranges?
Tony
If they are recent additions then it is very common for the plant to go through an adjustment period because of environmental changes and probably also a recent unpotting and repotting. If this is the case and the plants appear to be growing well and healthy then I would not be concerned.
I am glad to see you noted that pitcher size however is not decreasing as this is also a good way to judge the health of the plant. I find that many new plants I put in my greenhouse often produce smaller thicker leaves while simultaneously producing larger and larger pitchers. Eventually they regain the size they were originally and are producing much larger pitchers at the same time.
Perhaps you can give some information on light and moisture levels and temperature ranges?
Tony
Tony, I'm curious do you have a light meter? Could you tell us what are the number of footcandles in your GH? I have used my cameras light meter and sheet of white paper to test my highland tank light-ranges from 200fc (f 2.8) under the bench where the orchids are to 700 -800fc (f 6) where the hamata is (it's getting reddended leaves and has a 1.5:1 pitcher to leaf ratio it was nearly 2:1 when I got it from you) the latest pitcher may be 2:1 but it'll be another week or two before it is fully inflated and opens.
I was just curious if you've ever measured your light levels throughout the day. Since I'm so pleased with the speed/ease with which this one is growing I'm just curious what might happen if I were to have even higher levels (right now it's using 175 watts of power compacts and 80 watts of normal flourescents).
I was just curious if you've ever measured your light levels throughout the day. Since I'm so pleased with the speed/ease with which this one is growing I'm just curious what might happen if I were to have even higher levels (right now it's using 175 watts of power compacts and 80 watts of normal flourescents).
Sorry Josh I don't have a light meter ;< I could use the camera deal but I think that a reading during the Spring/Summer would be more appropriate as Winters here are pretty dreary. Remind me next May hehe
I would think there is a theoretical limit before the light becomes so bright that it starts doing more harm than good. Light level is also just one factor that will determine pitcher size. Moisture and temperature would be the other big ones IMO. The trick is to figure out which is the limiting one for your plants. With your set up I would suspect that your correct in thinking light intensity since you have very good control over temperatures and moisture levels. And as you mention color in the leaves is a good indicator for light levels.
700-800 foot candles is good for indoor growing but it is still fairly low. Perhaps someone growing under HID lighting knows how many foot candles their plants get. This would be a good comparison. It wouldn't surprise me if the plants in the greenhouse are getting 2000fc during the summer months when the main shade cloth is on. During the winter the main shade cloth is off and footcandles are much higher but the sun is also not as hot. (although 8 weeks of clouds followed by 1 sunny day is enough to burn the plants ;x)
How do you do the camera thing? I can try getting a reading when/if we have a sunny day here next.
Tony
I would think there is a theoretical limit before the light becomes so bright that it starts doing more harm than good. Light level is also just one factor that will determine pitcher size. Moisture and temperature would be the other big ones IMO. The trick is to figure out which is the limiting one for your plants. With your set up I would suspect that your correct in thinking light intensity since you have very good control over temperatures and moisture levels. And as you mention color in the leaves is a good indicator for light levels.
700-800 foot candles is good for indoor growing but it is still fairly low. Perhaps someone growing under HID lighting knows how many foot candles their plants get. This would be a good comparison. It wouldn't surprise me if the plants in the greenhouse are getting 2000fc during the summer months when the main shade cloth is on. During the winter the main shade cloth is off and footcandles are much higher but the sun is also not as hot. (although 8 weeks of clouds followed by 1 sunny day is enough to burn the plants ;x)
How do you do the camera thing? I can try getting a reading when/if we have a sunny day here next.
Tony
Hi Tony,
All you need is a white sheet of printer paper (non glossy no crinckles or folds) and lay the paper where the plants would be sitting. With your camera in Auto Exposure mode zoom in so as to fill the entire frame with the white paper (shooting 1-3 feet away and looking down at the paper at about 45* angle so you won't make shadows) then press your shutter down 1/2 way this should meter the white and give an f number on either the little LCD or in the viewfinder
Then the f numbers should translate to:
f /2.8 200 fc
f /4 370 fc
f/5.6 750 fc
f/8 1500 fc
f/11 2800 fc
f/16 5000 fc
f/ 16 is the cloudless summer day at noon with the sun directly overhead and is called "Sunny 16" by photographers. Once I get the metal halide wired up I will try the same trick and see what that says, I'm hoping it'll be at least 1500.
All you need is a white sheet of printer paper (non glossy no crinckles or folds) and lay the paper where the plants would be sitting. With your camera in Auto Exposure mode zoom in so as to fill the entire frame with the white paper (shooting 1-3 feet away and looking down at the paper at about 45* angle so you won't make shadows) then press your shutter down 1/2 way this should meter the white and give an f number on either the little LCD or in the viewfinder
Then the f numbers should translate to:
f /2.8 200 fc
f /4 370 fc
f/5.6 750 fc
f/8 1500 fc
f/11 2800 fc
f/16 5000 fc
f/ 16 is the cloudless summer day at noon with the sun directly overhead and is called "Sunny 16" by photographers. Once I get the metal halide wired up I will try the same trick and see what that says, I'm hoping it'll be at least 1500.
I remember in an old post, that someone said fertilizing can often cause stunted plants? But I suppose that might also cause the plant to not pitcher... What about superthrive usage?
-Lia
-Lia
Thanks Josh I will give it a try. I may have to extrapolate some how though. My old Minolta lets me set F stop on the lense and inside the LCD gives me shutter speed. I am guessing that whatever my Fstop is set at to give me a shutter speed of 1/60 would be roughly the same. Maybe I can compare with my Nikon digital which gives me a an Fstop reading on auto exposure.
Lia,
Although I can't speak from experience, what I would call overfertilizing may cause pitchers to stop forming. I have not heard it will cause stunted plants but instead big luxuriant plants with no pitchers. I deffinately recommend people to suppliment their plants with insects on a regular basis. Fertilizing by other means should be a secondary method for advanced growers unable to fully feed all their plants by natural means.
Superthive is a vitamin supplement. I don't personally use it. There have been proven studies that B1 will help in transplant shock and rooting. I suspect if Superthrive does benefit the plants it is mostly when taking cutting and when repotting. I think it's use on healthy normally growing plants is of little benefit. I can't comment also on consequences of overdose since I have no experience here.
Tony
Lia,
Although I can't speak from experience, what I would call overfertilizing may cause pitchers to stop forming. I have not heard it will cause stunted plants but instead big luxuriant plants with no pitchers. I deffinately recommend people to suppliment their plants with insects on a regular basis. Fertilizing by other means should be a secondary method for advanced growers unable to fully feed all their plants by natural means.
Superthive is a vitamin supplement. I don't personally use it. There have been proven studies that B1 will help in transplant shock and rooting. I suspect if Superthrive does benefit the plants it is mostly when taking cutting and when repotting. I think it's use on healthy normally growing plants is of little benefit. I can't comment also on consequences of overdose since I have no experience here.
Tony
Hi Josh,
to make that measurement the camera should be set to ISO100 and the exposure time and f-stop will give the result. Out of these two numbers the fc can be determined.
( http://members.cox.net/lmlauman/osp/html/lighting1_2.html )
This is of course only a measurement for the spectral distribution visible to the camer sensor.
My two 75W MH-lamps do reach about 1000fc.
Joachim
to make that measurement the camera should be set to ISO100 and the exposure time and f-stop will give the result. Out of these two numbers the fc can be determined.
( http://members.cox.net/lmlauman/osp/html/lighting1_2.html )
This is of course only a measurement for the spectral distribution visible to the camer sensor.
My two 75W MH-lamps do reach about 1000fc.
Joachim
Carcinos,
I noticed that my highlanders were like that when it had sunlight all day at the office...leaves were shorter but thicker and redder...pitchers are larger than before.
During my break I brought them home for a month...they had only the morning sun...the leaves became longer and thinner...more yellow...and no pitchers.
So I suppose that your growing conditions are ideal for the plants...no harm done...
I noticed that my highlanders were like that when it had sunlight all day at the office...leaves were shorter but thicker and redder...pitchers are larger than before.
During my break I brought them home for a month...they had only the morning sun...the leaves became longer and thinner...more yellow...and no pitchers.
So I suppose that your growing conditions are ideal for the plants...no harm done...
I did some measurements today with my old Minolta SLR. It was about 2:15pm. I had the camera set at f/8. I got slightly different readings depending on whether I was perpendicular to the paper lying flat on the bench or if I was at a 45deg angle facing the direction of the sun. The sun is fairly low in the sky this time of year. I have one piece of shade cloth that covers the peak area so that most of the plants are shaded during the midday time period. I took readings under this and out where there is only the greenhouse covering and no shade cloth. I moved away from the paper until it just filled the viewfinder.
Using the link Joachim provided:
Under the shade cloth:
90deg to the paper 500fc
45deg to the paper 500-1000fc guess that means 750fc
no shade cloth:
90deg to the paper 1000fc
45 deg to the paper 2000fc
Keep in mind that plants under the shade cloth are not under it for the entire day. There is an area of greenhouse covering on both sides that have no shade cloth. So as the sun moves across the sky all the plants get some amount of unshaded light during the day.
A better measure will be during June-July at noon.
Tony
Using the link Joachim provided:
Under the shade cloth:
90deg to the paper 500fc
45deg to the paper 500-1000fc guess that means 750fc
no shade cloth:
90deg to the paper 1000fc
45 deg to the paper 2000fc
Keep in mind that plants under the shade cloth are not under it for the entire day. There is an area of greenhouse covering on both sides that have no shade cloth. So as the sun moves across the sky all the plants get some amount of unshaded light during the day.
A better measure will be during June-July at noon.
Tony
Taking new measurements with that graph Joachim linked to above I really have bad light. How is it the plants are growing good and giving me 1: 1 pitcher ratios and good color? I must be doing this wrong! I saw a light meter for $24 last weekend I think I'll buy it with the next paycheck.
Highland chamber:
top shelf: 500 fc
2nd shelf 200 fc
3rd shelf: 125 fc
under bench: 16 fc
Lowland chamber (with 250 W metal halide)
Top of bench under light 300 fc
top of bench ends 125
where orchids hang mounted: 100 fc
under bench 16 fc
Highland chamber:
top shelf: 500 fc
2nd shelf 200 fc
3rd shelf: 125 fc
under bench: 16 fc
Lowland chamber (with 250 W metal halide)
Top of bench under light 300 fc
top of bench ends 125
where orchids hang mounted: 100 fc
under bench 16 fc
Keep in mind that a light bulb might put out half its light in the PAR range vs a much smaller percentage for the sun. So measuring total foot candles is not necessarily a direct comparison. If you wanted to be specific you would need a PAR meter. ie one that measures photosynthetic active radiation.
This will explain a little of the problem of comparing artificial lights to sunlight:
IGC
This will explain a little of the problem of comparing artificial lights to sunlight:
IGC
