What's new
TerraForums Venus Flytrap, Nepenthes, Drosera and more talk

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

further proof biologists should take geology classes

  • #21
yah know Mokele......i presented you with facts to back up my case from reputable sources and not crack pots.....

No, actually, you didn't. Your "facts" were flat-out wrong, and from crackpots. Check your sources, and if it's not a peer-reviewed scientific article, it's not a source, period.

the whole argument is based on changes of a few tenths of a degree.

You are aware that it only took about 10 degrees to cause the Permian Catastrophe, right? The event commonly called The Great Dying, which wiped out 90% of life and left our ancestors as stunted little mouse-things scurrying about the feet of the dinosaurs for 180 million years?

out of the last almost 120 years out of the 10 warmest on record, five are pre WWII. only 3 have occured in the last 10 years. doesnt that seem odd to you if the earth is infact on a major warming trend?

If you expect climate data to show a smooth, simple trend, you're just plain stupid. All climate data has scatter because it's a big, complex system.

Oh, and did you *also* notice that 4 of those 10 years were in the past decade?

Furthermore, there was actually a temporary dip in temperatures that partially masked global warming around the 40's, but not for a good reason - it was due to huge quantities of aerosols such as the sulfur compounds responsible for acid rain. Once they disipated to more tolerable levels, you see the same long-term rise again, even faster than before.

my problem with the global warming scare is there isnt chit for hard data before the 1880's or so.....all you have to back up your data is theory's.

Ice cores. I win.

Tree rings. I win.

Seafloor sediments. I win.

What was that about data?

i agree that the general data based on ice cores and sea floor sediment is prolly more or less right however that is not hard data about what temps were. you cant tell me the average temps for Europe, NA and Asia for 1659 and 1754 based on ice core data, you can tell me that it was likely warmer or cooler than 10 years previous but that is about it.

Um, yes, we can. Between ice cores, tree rings, isotope analysis and 100 other methods, we *can* reliably construct models of past climate.

Hell, do you know what one of the biggest controversies in climate studies is right now? The Cretaceous. Yes, as in T. rex, Triceratops, raptors, and that lot. We can reconstruct climate from 65 million years ago, and you're pissing and moaning that we might be off by a degree or two about the summer of 1745 in London?

Fail.

as far as CFC's and the ozone layer i seem to remeber being told the hole in the Ozone layer was due to CFC's let loose 40 years or so previous cause the CFC's take time to travel into the upper atmosphere, let alone be concentrated at the south pole. why in the hell did a crack down on CFC's in the 80's and 90's close up the hole so fast?, it shouldnt have started closing up till the 2050's or so. based on what we did 10 years ago. either the scientists were wrong about what CFC's due to the ozone layer, or how fast they move, or it was part of the natural processes......

You were wrong - nobody ever said 40 years. The number is 15 years, which fits right in with reality.

So, ready to give up? Or are you going to keep parroting crap from Faux News? Why not just sit down an admit that the real scientisits actually know what they're doing?

Mokele
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #22
*sigh*

This thread really went downhill since I last checked. Was going so well, too.

A discussion does not always have to be about who is right or wrong - or about winning, either... its not a competition unless you make it one.

I do not want to start this up again, so rattler I will PM you - lets talks about the sun.
 
  • #23
im not ready to give up cause your missing the forest cause of the trees with my arguement.

i never said the earth wasnt warming up i said i doubted mans involvement in it.you say the years i gave in the top ten dont matter because you say its a trend not a simple linear trend.....well no chit, the earth has had an overall warming trend for the last 10,000 years with ups and downs like the top ten i gave....its freaking normal. we are hitting a peak in that trend.....just as likely in the next 50-100 years we will start down the other side of the curve and have temperature drop as keep rising..

i never said tree rings, ice cores and sea floor sediment arent showing a warming trend. im saying you cant tel me that from year X to year X+5 the earth warmed up .3 degrees.....you can tell me it raised somewhere between .2 and .5 degrees.....you can tell me it raised but you cant tell me exactly how much. and depending on how you want to make the data look you can say either it was a huge jump or it was normal. but most of all these tree rings and ice cores show a warming trend BEFORE the industrial revolution.

my whole freaking argument isnt that global warming isnt happening its that the natural processes of the earth and solar system contribute to 95% plus of it and man might have as much as 5% involvement in it.

my other argument isnt that global warming is going to kill us off as a species, its just going to be bad for ppl in some areas.....most notably those in the US and mainland Europe its going the f'with. look it where on the earth is above the 45th parallel, this area is likely to have a boon in agriculture due to the warming........the US is pretty well screwed as is half of Europe, however Canada and Russia have huge tracks of land that will now more than likely be farmable. is this for sure? no but it is highly likely

as i said Mokele.......your missing the forest for the trees.....i aint arguing with yah weither or not global warming is happening.....im arguing the cause................you seem to think im denighing weither or not its happening.....do i think pollution levels should be lowered? yes definatly. but dont feed me the man made global warming line of crap to get it through. ill vote for it anyways if the logic behind doing it is sound.
 
  • #26
you say the years i gave in the top ten dont matter because you say its a trend not a simple linear trend.....well no chit, the earth has had an overall warming trend for the last 10,000 years with ups and downs like the top ten i gave....its freaking normal. we are hitting a peak in that trend.....just as likely in the next 50-100 years we will start down the other side of the curve and have temperature drop as keep rising..

Wrong, it's been essentially flat, since we're in an interglacial period, and there is no evidence of any impending cooling.

Where are you getting this crap?

but most of all these tree rings and ice cores show a warming trend BEFORE the industrial revolution.

Show me a source. A REAL source.

my whole freaking argument isnt that global warming isnt happening its that the natural processes of the earth and solar system contribute to 95% plus of it and man might have as much as 5% involvement in it.

So, did you simply not read the part where I showed that solar output was NOT increasing, and that the Milankovich cycles did NOT account for the warming?

It's not the sun, and it's not a natural ice-age fluctuation. Those have been proven. What's your proposed cause? What explains the data better than the fact that we've been dumping a known greenhouse gas into the air for 150 years or more?

as i said Mokele.......your missing the forest for the trees.....i aint arguing with yah weither or not global warming is happening.....im arguing the cause...

I am perfectly well aware of that.

I am also perfectly aware that your proposed causes are incorrect, which is precisely what I have been taking pains to point out.

"You have the right to your own opinions, but not to your own facts." - I forget who. So far, the 'evidence' of your claims has been shown to be wrong. Either get some real evidence, or re-evaluate your position.

Mokele
 
  • #27
rong, it's been essentially flat, since we're in an interglacial period, and there is no evidence of any impending cooling.

I think he was referring to the Medieval warm period cycling into the Little Ice Age (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Ice_Age), though not by name.

I too would like to see some of your references, rattler.
 
  • #28
working on it Finch......tlod yah why i lost my links.....unfortunatly we are running short staffed at the paper and also was informed by the wife im vollenteering to help with the chamber at the Divisional C Basketball tourney Frida, Saturday and maybe Thursday nights......she hasnt given me any thing on the "honey do" listfor the weekend other than that so i hope to be abletotrack down the stuff i had before on Sat morning.....
 
  • #29
Works for me, actually; I'm going to be out of town until Saturday.
 
  • #30
Works for me, actually; I'm going to be out of town until Saturday.

I hope you don't travel around looking like this. FACT, this is the great Mokele in all his greatness:

meandhugebtsrt2.jpg


Seriously what kind of dragon master uber-nerd are you? WRONG! WRONG! I guess it's true that evolution isn't always advantageous.
 
  • #31
I don't see anything wrong with how he looks...

BTW what snake is that Mokele??
 
  • #32
I don't see anything wrong with how he looks...

Neither do Ivy-League schools, I found out today.

BTW what snake is that Mokele??

A large Brown Tree Snake. The photo was taken during fieldwork in Guam about 3 years ago.

Mokele
 
  • #33
Neither do Ivy-League schools, I found out today.

I will assume that means you have gotten a job offer somewhere so I offer my congratulations.

A large Brown Tree Snake. The photo was taken during fieldwork in Guam about 3 years ago.

Large indeed!! I am guessing the marks on the pipe are 30cm intervals? So that beast is pushing 250cm?? I was not aware they even came close to that size.
 
Last edited:
  • #34
It's too bad it was too warm for you to wear a black hood and too bright to light a few candles for that photo. That snake. That hair. That pose. It could have been a great attention getter for bible thumping emailers everywhere.

So which Ivy League school, if you don't mind my asking? No football school would be bothered by your look either, as long as you can benchpress a pickup truck.
 
  • #35
I have not read through this whole thread just for everyone info. Now I am not discounting the effect that humans are having on the environment by no means, but I find it rather funny that we have HUGE pockets of methane gas off the coast of Cali that is being released into the atmosphere. Now no one has yet to mention that methane is many many time more of a greenhouse gas than CO2 is. It is believed that a huge release has happened before and sent the globe into a warming phase. Well the show I saw actually said they thought this huge cloud of methane exploded and vaporized everything around it. These bubbles are currently being released in the ocean with VAST stores more frozen at the bottom of the ocean. As more gets released the warmer the globe gets the more gas is released. All its going to take is one earth quake to release a large pocket then the possibility of BOOM! Now the things that produce this methane are bacteria, but no one ever thinks to point the finger there.

Yes thing are always changing in the world. They always have and things adapt or die. Period. Thing go extinct and new species pop up. That is the way it is and the way it always will be. No matter how hard you try to prevent something from happeneind it will happen anyway.

Now like I said before I am not trying to discount the effect humans are having on the world, but we are not the only factor influencing our world. I do believe our world is in a cycle. Nature has a way to take things back over and recycle. Things adapt and things move on.

I know I am going to be ripped a new one for this post, but oh well. The facts are facts. The world is changing and before long we will need a bridge to get to California. Things are moving they have never stopped. Just like the world is changing and evolving and never will stop.
 
  • #36
All its going to take is one earth quake to release a large pocket then the possibility of BOOM!
I certainly won't miss California :D
 
  • #37
I will assume that means you have gotten a job offer somewhere so I offer my congratulations.

PhD, actually, and thanks!

So which Ivy League school, if you don't mind my asking?

Brown; they have the best facilities in the world for my research (biomechanics), and an unparalleled concentration of faculty in my field (they have 5, other schools have 1 or maybe 2, and most have zero).

Large indeed!! I am guessing the marks on the pipe are 30cm intervals? So that beast is pushing 90cm??

20 cm, and the body obscures some of them. The actual animal is in jar somewhere around lab, and measured 183 cm without tail (20cm tail, I think).

In the past, BTS on Guam could close in on 12 feet, thanks to the bats and birds they've since eradicated. Sizes have since declined so that even beasts like that one (named 'Colossus') are uncommon now, since they seem to mostly subsist on geckos and introduced rodents.

Now I am not discounting the effect that humans are having on the environment by no means, but I find it rather funny that we have HUGE pockets of methane gas off the coast of Cali that is being released into the atmosphere. Now no one has yet to mention that methane is many many time more of a greenhouse gas than CO2 is. It is believed that a huge release has happened before and sent the globe into a warming phase. Well the show I saw actually said they thought this huge cloud of methane exploded and vaporized everything around it. These bubbles are currently being released in the ocean with VAST stores more frozen at the bottom of the ocean. As more gets released the warmer the globe gets the more gas is released. All its going to take is one earth quake to release a large pocket then the possibility of BOOM! Now the things that produce this methane are bacteria, but no one ever thinks to point the finger there.

Technically, they're called "methane clathrates", and are basically ice with methane trapped within the crystraline structure (and FYI, it's not bacterial but geological in origin).

Yes, methane is *MUCH* nastier than CO2 as a greenhouse gas, but it's also very, very unstable (as many poor *******s with a match have found out the hard way). It degrades rapidly in the atmosphere (into CO2, incidentally), so the effect is very short-lived (while CO2's effect is small, but continues on for a long, long, long time).

So you're right about methane being a big problem. And roughly half of all methane emissions are from humans, so we're a part of that problem too.

Yes thing are always changing in the world. They always have and things adapt or die. Period. Thing go extinct and new species pop up. That is the way it is and the way it always will be. No matter how hard you try to prevent something from happeneind it will happen anyway. Now like I said before I am not trying to discount the effect humans are having on the world, but we are not the only factor influencing our world. I do believe our world is in a cycle. Nature has a way to take things back over and recycle. Things adapt and things move on.

The objection isn't so much to change as it is to human-induced change. And Earth will definitely putter along just fine no matter what we do. The question is about quality of life for humans. People already starve and die of thirst, and if crop-yields decrease, more will. Tropical diseases kill millions, and their vectors will spread north as the climate warms. Species will be lost forever (and won't it suck if something that dies could have cured cancer?).

Mokele
 
  • #38
The first time humans had a major impact on the environment was with the emissions produced by the Flinstone's car along with the other drivers of Bedrock. All the gasses given off by the vehicles is what killed the dinosaurs (that, and the overuse of dinosaurs as living machinery, food, and household appliances). Let us all learn from our past history and mistakes. Yabba dabba do not forget this.
 
  • #39
PhD, actually, and thanks

Congrats. Enjoy the next 6 odd years of your life (speaking from my experience which will be ending shortly...)

20 cm, and the body obscures some of them. The actual animal is in jar somewhere around lab, and measured 183 cm without tail (20cm tail, I think).

Realized my math was idiotic (8 marks @ estimated 30cm would be 240... Duh!!) Still a brute even at 2m

Technically, they're called "methane clathrates", and are basically ice with methane trapped within the crystraline structure (and FYI, it's not bacterial but geological in origin).

Just read a few papers on this funny enough. Actually it is more oceanographic the geological (temp and pressure of the water causes the methane to freeze out.) And the fact that it does not come bubbling up en mass is bacterial in nature. groups of methane metabolizing bacterial "consume" the methane that does get loose and convert it to CO2 before it reaches the surface. Just part of the strange mega-biota that are microbes

The objection isn't so much to change as it is to human-induced change. And Earth will definitely putter along just fine no matter what we do. The question is about quality of life for humans. People already starve and die of thirst, and if crop-yields decrease, more will. Tropical diseases kill millions, and their vectors will spread north as the climate warms. Species will be lost forever (and won't it suck if something that dies could have cured cancer?).

Thank you for putting into words better what I was trying to express. It is not about what happens to Earth that most people actually care about but how "comfortable" we as humans are on Earth.

And yes it will suck if something dies that could cure cancer. Which is why it is disturbing to see the sharks declining given they don't get cancer...
 
Back
Top