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Fined / Jailed for not having insurance: are they insane?
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Commenting on the objection to the allegation that there would be jail time for the uninsured:
Since you've read up, where does the bill say the penalty is jail time for not paying the fine for failing to get insurance? (Please cite the name of the measure and section.)
By the way, in the Senate Finance Committee the Chairman's Mark of America's Healthy Future Act of 2009 (Baucus' version, recently released) is 220 pages in length. So either you're a fast reader or you're talking about something else.
Since you've read up, where does the bill say the penalty is jail time for not paying the fine for failing to get insurance? (Please cite the name of the measure and section.)
By the way, in the Senate Finance Committee the Chairman's Mark of America's Healthy Future Act of 2009 (Baucus' version, recently released) is 220 pages in length. So either you're a fast reader or you're talking about something else.
JB_OrchidGuy
Cardiac Nurse
LMAO You guys voted for him. I knew he was talking out his butt when he started campaigning. All you had to do was listen to him. I actually liked him in the beginning before he started bidding for president. Before anyone knew anything about him. But once he hit the scene you could smell the 2 faced socialist agenda all the way down here in GA.
---------- Post added at 06:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:40 AM ----------
LMAO I dont think you guys have ANY ******* clue. How many of you guys take into consideration the number of people who choose to go without health insurance because they set aside their own funds for that purpose? I know many Doctors like that. They are self insured. Did you know the trucking company Swift is like that too? Self insured. They carry enough money in reserve to pay any Insurance claims.
Seedjar, I am sorry you have a need for a medication that cost over 700 a month. May I ask what drug it is? Maybe it is in limited use. Even if it is new and monopolized the patent will run out then generics can be made. But the US is the one market where they can recoup research costs. Do I think reform needs to happen? Absolutely, but not in the socialistic form our dear president wants.
One of the reason our costs are so high is because of the outrageous amount juries want to give people in malpractice lawsuits. Medicine is NOT I repeat NOT an exact science. Doctors Guess and guess often. Not everyone symptoms are the same and not everyone's bodily reactions to things are the same. When a Doctor performs a surgery or procedure, there are side effects. There are things that happen unintentionally. Then when one of those things happens people want to sue the Doctor who was trying to help them. Not to mention everyone is out for a quick buck and what better way than with a malpractice suit. For those of you who don't know. I am a nurse and see it all the time. Before that i was a Surgical tech. I see the Doctors practicing defensive medicine all the time. They don't want to get sued and that ends up costing the system more money as well. There was one Doctor I used to work with. A GYN Doctor who would do a scope on a lady for about 30 seconds and then immediately open. he would tell you as a tech up front. I asked him why one day and he said the INS company would not pay him for the procedure unless he did a "diagnostic" procedure first. The doc already knew what needed to be done. Just had to do the second procedure and bill for it so he could get paid for doing it in the first place.
Then you have those folks who don't have Ins who come in for emergency surgery. Th prognosis is very slim for this person to survive, but the family wants everything done. So of course we do it, but they don't have INS. So the Hospital ends up eating the cost of sometimes multiple surgeries only for the Pt to expire anyway. Because the prognosis was bad to begin with. Or how about the person we are doing the 3rd leg bypass on who is uninsured and doesn't want to quit smoking? So she continues to make her PVD worse by smoking. There are countless examples of this I can find. Now I am a nurse and all for helping people, but the system can only take so much. There are hospitals going under because of non paying people.
OHHHHHHHHH And one other factor in the mix with healthcare costs. Medicare has been cutting its reimbursements every year. I spoke with one anesthesiologist and he said he is making half the amount now as he was several years ago on medicare Pts. This was several years ago when he told me this. Here is the kicker. Every time medicare/medicaid drops its reimbursements the INS companies fallow suit. On some procedures the hospital and Docs do not recoup the amount needed for manpower and supplies. So the hospital opts not to perform those surgeries anymore. They do have control over the procedures performed by the surgeons at their facility.
Then another factor is cost is the amount of people who use the ER as a primary care facility. It is not designed for that. I think we all know about that though.
Then another factor is America has become FAT AND LAZY!!! Rely on too much fast food and the easy way out. I know I'm not a small guy by no means but I am attempting to stay healthy so I don't have to go to the Doctor. Many people in America don't give a rats butt and eat till they pop every day. Sit on their fat butts in front of video games or TV eating the sugar laden foods they buy with their EBT. (((Ok horrible dramatization. I know not everyone sits on their fat rump eating foods you and I bought. Many do it with foods they actually worked for.))) The fact is rich or poor America is getting too fat and not staying healthy.
Ok done with my soap box. Let the JB bashing begin!!!!! I can feel it already!! the fact I am a nurse and work in the field will never ring in some peoples mind. Just think I'm cruel and cold hearted. What is cruel and cold hearted is the fact that Hospitals have to run 8-10 pts a nurse sometimes because they can't afford to pay for the right amount of staff because the system is so screwed up. I am one for reform, just not the type of reform that brings about a socialistic one payer system. If I want to live in socialism I would go to Cuba or China. Hasn't anyone noticed how much more productive and booming China is now that they are becoming less socialistic?
---------- Post added at 06:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:40 AM ----------
LMAO I dont think you guys have ANY ******* clue. How many of you guys take into consideration the number of people who choose to go without health insurance because they set aside their own funds for that purpose? I know many Doctors like that. They are self insured. Did you know the trucking company Swift is like that too? Self insured. They carry enough money in reserve to pay any Insurance claims.
Seedjar, I am sorry you have a need for a medication that cost over 700 a month. May I ask what drug it is? Maybe it is in limited use. Even if it is new and monopolized the patent will run out then generics can be made. But the US is the one market where they can recoup research costs. Do I think reform needs to happen? Absolutely, but not in the socialistic form our dear president wants.
One of the reason our costs are so high is because of the outrageous amount juries want to give people in malpractice lawsuits. Medicine is NOT I repeat NOT an exact science. Doctors Guess and guess often. Not everyone symptoms are the same and not everyone's bodily reactions to things are the same. When a Doctor performs a surgery or procedure, there are side effects. There are things that happen unintentionally. Then when one of those things happens people want to sue the Doctor who was trying to help them. Not to mention everyone is out for a quick buck and what better way than with a malpractice suit. For those of you who don't know. I am a nurse and see it all the time. Before that i was a Surgical tech. I see the Doctors practicing defensive medicine all the time. They don't want to get sued and that ends up costing the system more money as well. There was one Doctor I used to work with. A GYN Doctor who would do a scope on a lady for about 30 seconds and then immediately open. he would tell you as a tech up front. I asked him why one day and he said the INS company would not pay him for the procedure unless he did a "diagnostic" procedure first. The doc already knew what needed to be done. Just had to do the second procedure and bill for it so he could get paid for doing it in the first place.
Then you have those folks who don't have Ins who come in for emergency surgery. Th prognosis is very slim for this person to survive, but the family wants everything done. So of course we do it, but they don't have INS. So the Hospital ends up eating the cost of sometimes multiple surgeries only for the Pt to expire anyway. Because the prognosis was bad to begin with. Or how about the person we are doing the 3rd leg bypass on who is uninsured and doesn't want to quit smoking? So she continues to make her PVD worse by smoking. There are countless examples of this I can find. Now I am a nurse and all for helping people, but the system can only take so much. There are hospitals going under because of non paying people.
OHHHHHHHHH And one other factor in the mix with healthcare costs. Medicare has been cutting its reimbursements every year. I spoke with one anesthesiologist and he said he is making half the amount now as he was several years ago on medicare Pts. This was several years ago when he told me this. Here is the kicker. Every time medicare/medicaid drops its reimbursements the INS companies fallow suit. On some procedures the hospital and Docs do not recoup the amount needed for manpower and supplies. So the hospital opts not to perform those surgeries anymore. They do have control over the procedures performed by the surgeons at their facility.
Then another factor is cost is the amount of people who use the ER as a primary care facility. It is not designed for that. I think we all know about that though.
Then another factor is America has become FAT AND LAZY!!! Rely on too much fast food and the easy way out. I know I'm not a small guy by no means but I am attempting to stay healthy so I don't have to go to the Doctor. Many people in America don't give a rats butt and eat till they pop every day. Sit on their fat butts in front of video games or TV eating the sugar laden foods they buy with their EBT. (((Ok horrible dramatization. I know not everyone sits on their fat rump eating foods you and I bought. Many do it with foods they actually worked for.))) The fact is rich or poor America is getting too fat and not staying healthy.
Ok done with my soap box. Let the JB bashing begin!!!!! I can feel it already!! the fact I am a nurse and work in the field will never ring in some peoples mind. Just think I'm cruel and cold hearted. What is cruel and cold hearted is the fact that Hospitals have to run 8-10 pts a nurse sometimes because they can't afford to pay for the right amount of staff because the system is so screwed up. I am one for reform, just not the type of reform that brings about a socialistic one payer system. If I want to live in socialism I would go to Cuba or China. Hasn't anyone noticed how much more productive and booming China is now that they are becoming less socialistic?
I'm back, had to go to work... I'm glad everyone is discussing but behaving themselves. Perhaps the only one panicking is me, maybe I should let up on my speculative fiction writing... I'll be running around with a foil hat over my robe before long! 
I have insurance, for now, that I can afford. Should I get laid off though then what? I could take my insurance with me (which they've been promoting) but it would be at the cost of my unemployment check. I know cos I've been through that already through another company's lay off in 2001. As it stands, without some $400 premium hanging over me I could just make it with an unemployment check until I found another job. Which would again have insurance.
I don't think this is "socialism" by any stretch of the imagination. This is blatant capitalist piggery of the kind only America could devise. I want to see the stock portfolios of the guys coming up with these ideas. They're handing 30,000,000 new customers to the for-profit insurance industry and giving them a green light to swipe "up to" 13% of your income. Do you think they'll settle for less if they don't have to? They'll surely find a way to wring every red cent out of you. I don't pay anywhere near 13% of my income now for my insurance. I don't believe this sort of "individually mandated reform" will do much more than ruin a lot of people's lives that are already in the dumper.
Obama's becoming the polar opposite of why I voted for him. So far we've got increased military spending (cutting the experiments and increasing munitions), calls for troop increases, picking new fights/wars and soon to be decimating the lower middle class (by that I mean the 10 - 30K year folks). I told you guys they put electrodes in his brain that day he met with Bush behind closed doors... lol
I have insurance, for now, that I can afford. Should I get laid off though then what? I could take my insurance with me (which they've been promoting) but it would be at the cost of my unemployment check. I know cos I've been through that already through another company's lay off in 2001. As it stands, without some $400 premium hanging over me I could just make it with an unemployment check until I found another job. Which would again have insurance.
I don't think this is "socialism" by any stretch of the imagination. This is blatant capitalist piggery of the kind only America could devise. I want to see the stock portfolios of the guys coming up with these ideas. They're handing 30,000,000 new customers to the for-profit insurance industry and giving them a green light to swipe "up to" 13% of your income. Do you think they'll settle for less if they don't have to? They'll surely find a way to wring every red cent out of you. I don't pay anywhere near 13% of my income now for my insurance. I don't believe this sort of "individually mandated reform" will do much more than ruin a lot of people's lives that are already in the dumper.
Obama's becoming the polar opposite of why I voted for him. So far we've got increased military spending (cutting the experiments and increasing munitions), calls for troop increases, picking new fights/wars and soon to be decimating the lower middle class (by that I mean the 10 - 30K year folks). I told you guys they put electrodes in his brain that day he met with Bush behind closed doors... lol
for a major bill 220 pages is pretty short and its been out for about 2 weeks.....as far as if i would have read it or not, you realize Baucus is my senator and that i run two newspapers? it is kinda my job to keep up on what the guy is doing.......
and what happens when you dont pay a fine, especially one imposed by the feds?
So although you say that there will be jail time for those who don’t pay the fine, you can’t point to anywhere in the bill that calls for jail time. All you can do is make an unfounded assertion that any violation of federal law results in jail time. The fact is that there are laws requiring people to do things or prohibiting people from doing things that have no penalties associated with them. But before anyone starts thinking about not paying the fine, the IRS is going to collect it.
the exact penalty may not be on the books but a judge can dole out the penalty if you broke the law that is on the books....you really do live in your own lil world.....claim i couldnt have read a bill in 10 days though i get paid to keep up on these things cause its my business though you wouldnt have doubted me if i had read a 500 page novel in that time as can most here and there will be a higher word count in the novel....claim i cant know what a punishment is going to be when i cover local, state and federal court cases....
guess what its my job and i get paid to keep an eye on this kind of stuff.......it aint a hobby.....i also understand school law and school finance better than most school board members in the state, i also have a great understanding of the state and federal open meeting laws and the Montana Freedom of Information Act....just cause im not a lawyer doesnt mean i dont understand it. and cant reference cases that have gone through the courts off the top of my head. i spend good chunks of my days keeping tabs on current court cases going through the various levels of court.....
guess what its my job and i get paid to keep an eye on this kind of stuff.......it aint a hobby.....i also understand school law and school finance better than most school board members in the state, i also have a great understanding of the state and federal open meeting laws and the Montana Freedom of Information Act....just cause im not a lawyer doesnt mean i dont understand it. and cant reference cases that have gone through the courts off the top of my head. i spend good chunks of my days keeping tabs on current court cases going through the various levels of court.....
Tropics I'm the one who made the initial unfounded assertion there'd be jail time for not paying the fines. How much time who knows. How long are people usually jailed for tax violations 3 - 5? True they aren't talking about this on any of the news, think of the panic it would cause from people already stretched to their financial limits? I should think it would make the imaginary "death panel panic" Fox news whipped up seem tame in comparison.
Looking at it from a practical standpoint if you don't pay your taxes or can't pay this fine because you're unemployed (but would not owe anything except for this $1000 fine for not having insurance you can't afford) what happens is that the IRS tries to collect. If you can't pay the IRS you don't get sent to Disneyland for a vacation. Although if they start jailing people cos they can't pay the no-insurance fine, they may have to acquire Disneyland to house them all. lol
The companies, lawmakers and IRS all seem to think poor people aren't really poor we just live this way so we can hide our money in ammo boxes buried in the back yard or in our offshore banking accounts. Truth be told they're the only ones with any money to do that sort of stuff with.
Looking at it from a practical standpoint if you don't pay your taxes or can't pay this fine because you're unemployed (but would not owe anything except for this $1000 fine for not having insurance you can't afford) what happens is that the IRS tries to collect. If you can't pay the IRS you don't get sent to Disneyland for a vacation. Although if they start jailing people cos they can't pay the no-insurance fine, they may have to acquire Disneyland to house them all. lol
The companies, lawmakers and IRS all seem to think poor people aren't really poor we just live this way so we can hide our money in ammo boxes buried in the back yard or in our offshore banking accounts. Truth be told they're the only ones with any money to do that sort of stuff with.
Imma let you finish but ...
Rattler, maybe you should read my post again. I didn’t claim that you didn’t read the bill. I said that if you read it, you must be a fast reader. So apparently you are a fast reader. You seem to think that judges can impose penalties for any violation of law. They can do it only if the law prescribes penalties because judges are bound to follow the law. If the law doesn’t prescribe penalties, they are not able to impose them. You admit that penalties are not on the books.
Swords, the fine is not a tax, so penalties for tax violations don’t apply.
JB, you are arguing against yourself. You say that the use of emergency rooms is unnecessarily high, driving up the cost of health care, because people without health care insurance use it. (Hospitals have to treat people who go to the ER, whether they can pay for it or not.) The whole point of Obama’s health care reform is to insure more people so they get their illnesses treated early so that they don’t get so severely ill that they have to go to the ER. You seem to dislike the idea of socialism. Did you drive to work or drive to the market in the past few days, or use the bus? If so, the roads that you used were likely built by government. Those were socialist roads that you were using, and you're probably not going to stop using them. Take the good ideas from socialism and use them.
In the U.S., a whopping 18% of the gross domestic product is spent on health care. Yet 46 million people are uninsured. Other developed countries spend only 12% of their GDP on health care. Furthermore, they insure everyone, AND they have better health outcomes. Americans are paying too much for too little. That’s why we need health care reform.
Swords, the fine is not a tax, so penalties for tax violations don’t apply.
JB, you are arguing against yourself. You say that the use of emergency rooms is unnecessarily high, driving up the cost of health care, because people without health care insurance use it. (Hospitals have to treat people who go to the ER, whether they can pay for it or not.) The whole point of Obama’s health care reform is to insure more people so they get their illnesses treated early so that they don’t get so severely ill that they have to go to the ER. You seem to dislike the idea of socialism. Did you drive to work or drive to the market in the past few days, or use the bus? If so, the roads that you used were likely built by government. Those were socialist roads that you were using, and you're probably not going to stop using them. Take the good ideas from socialism and use them.
In the U.S., a whopping 18% of the gross domestic product is spent on health care. Yet 46 million people are uninsured. Other developed countries spend only 12% of their GDP on health care. Furthermore, they insure everyone, AND they have better health outcomes. Americans are paying too much for too little. That’s why we need health care reform.
FINALLY someone that sees the big picture. Paying for it never has been an issue, priorities as to where money from the GDP goes is the problem.
alot of the laws started with no set punishment guidelines, its only after the laws went into effect and judges and juries were giving widely different punishments for the same crime that the standards were put....there are all kinds of crimes with no set punishment on the books, usually minor crimes, that a judge uses their discretion on how to punish the individual...i aint saying your going to do years in a federal pen for not doing it but i can defiantly see yah sitting for 30 days....
250 pages in the 5 days i actually did it aint much, thats 50 pages a day and they aint cramming lots of words on a page, i used to finish off a 300 some page novel in a day and a half when i wasnt working....given right now im nursing a back injury ive got lots of time at work sitting at my desk to read....
will say that the committe on Baucus's bill voted down an admendment to it today that would have required the final bill in the committee to be released for the public to read 72 hours before they voted on it.....apparently its so important they cant take an extra 3 days to allow the general public to read it.
250 pages in the 5 days i actually did it aint much, thats 50 pages a day and they aint cramming lots of words on a page, i used to finish off a 300 some page novel in a day and a half when i wasnt working....given right now im nursing a back injury ive got lots of time at work sitting at my desk to read....
will say that the committe on Baucus's bill voted down an admendment to it today that would have required the final bill in the committee to be released for the public to read 72 hours before they voted on it.....apparently its so important they cant take an extra 3 days to allow the general public to read it.
Rattler can anyone read it or is it press only? If yes have you got a link?
250 pages isn't anything at all. If it's interesting/paced reading I can read two 400 page Warhammer 40K SF novels in a 12 hour shift at work when we've got absolutely nothing to do. Of course, a health care bill won't have as many explosions or nifty space marines!
250 pages isn't anything at all. If it's interesting/paced reading I can read two 400 page Warhammer 40K SF novels in a 12 hour shift at work when we've got absolutely nothing to do. Of course, a health care bill won't have as many explosions or nifty space marines!
Tropics said:
thats only part of the big picture..not all of it..
the part that is missing is that those "other countries" dont have a huge segment of the population who have been trained by (a segment of) the government to rely on them for everything..we have a HUGE dependcy class, who dont want to work, because they dont have to work, because (a segment of) the government tells them they dont have to..
Free healthcare for all is a continuation of this problem..not a solution to it.
Story in the local newspaper yesterday:
I live in Monroe County, NY..
which has the 2nd highest property tax rate in the USA..(nearby Niagara county, NY is #1, and the top 10 counties are ALL in NY state)
why are our tax rates so high??
because NY state takes money from those who own property, and gives it to those who dont..
its really that simple..Democrats in office have set it up this way..their jobs depend on it.
Its the same thing with democrats running the whole country..just on a much more massive scale..NY state is on the verge of collapse because of the dependcy class democrats have created..so is the whole country.
If you are a homeowner in another state..take the full market value of your home and multiply it by 0.035
thats how you much you would pay in annual property tax if you lived in NY state..
and its probably what you will be paying eventually if this madness doesnt stop..
and it shows no signs of stopping..its actualluy gotten much worse in the last 8 months..
SOMEONE has to pay for all this!
who will it be? it will be you..
This thread is actually refreshing!
finally some people who voted for Obama are waking up and seeing what they really voted for..
this is a good thing..
Scot
Well had I not voted for Obama I wouldn't have voted. No way I'd have voted for Palin, I'm not looking for a Jesus mullah. I was never much on these so called elections, as they used to say "if voting changed anything they'd make it illegal". Obama seems to be proving the only actual difference between a republican and democrat is the lies they tell to get elected. Underneath neither of them view the lower middle class as anything but wage slaves. Which is better than having real slaves since they don't feel any need to feed and medicate the wage slaves. He got a lot of eggheads by using the right words but just like Clinton it seems to have covered a different agenda than initially anticipated. I'm not "anti-Obama" in the same way as Foilhats News or anything but I'm not seeing the Changes I was Hoping for. It seems to be going in the opposite direction IMHO.
I am still very much for health care insurance reform, making it cheap enough for everyone to afford it who wants it but being forced into it or fined (and possibly jailed) is just crazy. He said during the election that he would not make it a mandate and yet here we are. Him and Clinton running around saying it's the same as paying car insurance. I don't pay 13% of my income for car insurance! So far I've been an awesome driver never a ticket, never a wreck, I pay almost nothing and it's only once or twice a year. If I didn't wanna pay car insurance I'd quit driving (or move to Wisconsin). Unless you kill yourself you won't have any choice in paying on this for profit insurance rap, or pay the fines.
As far as deadbeats freeloading if they know how to do it they're already doing it, deadbeats will always find a way. Minnesota has "the best welfare in the tri-state area" so they say. However, I tried to apply for aid when I was laid off before, I don't know all the right buzzwords I guess. I did get unemployment checks though.
I am still very much for health care insurance reform, making it cheap enough for everyone to afford it who wants it but being forced into it or fined (and possibly jailed) is just crazy. He said during the election that he would not make it a mandate and yet here we are. Him and Clinton running around saying it's the same as paying car insurance. I don't pay 13% of my income for car insurance! So far I've been an awesome driver never a ticket, never a wreck, I pay almost nothing and it's only once or twice a year. If I didn't wanna pay car insurance I'd quit driving (or move to Wisconsin). Unless you kill yourself you won't have any choice in paying on this for profit insurance rap, or pay the fines.
As far as deadbeats freeloading if they know how to do it they're already doing it, deadbeats will always find a way. Minnesota has "the best welfare in the tri-state area" so they say. However, I tried to apply for aid when I was laid off before, I don't know all the right buzzwords I guess. I did get unemployment checks though.
You couldnt have said it better right there. One part of society that irks me is the lazy class. The ones dont require social benefits like food stamps, medicare etc... but yet still qualify and use it. I know a handful and they get a piece of my mind every time. There needs to be a just balance as a mother of 3 can work 60-70 hr work weeks and still not make ends meet and not be eligible for social benefits.
And I am happy to do so if I can afford it. I dont need a lavish car or home, I just want to live comfortably and my salary taxes can reflect that, I wont be bothered one bit. If we live in a so called 'society' that works together then we better start acting like one rather then a dog eat dog world.
Yet some CEOs rake in 65 mil a year and find something to complain about when they loose a couple mil to taxes. Is that 2-3 million really going to make that much of a difference in your life? I seriously doubt that.
And I'd vote for him again today. No way Palin was getting my vote or will ever get it. Though I disagree with the way Obama has handled some things I still firmly believe we're better off right now then we would be if the other guys were in power. Let's just hope Obama starts to LISTEN to the people and handles the Afghan situation properly.
swords....in general, and in all reality the way it really should work, if the press has access to it everyone does.....the press is the general public they just have the teeth to fight for stuff and get it a lil faster than the average Joe would....
as far as the bill itself, they are required to give it to the public when its introduced to the committee but we technically arent required to see a copy of it again until after the committee votes on it and it heads out to the senate floor.....since Obama stated he wanted things to be "transparent" , or atleast thats what he preached during his campaign, now that he is in office his view on this has seemed to change, one of the members of the committee thought they should post the final copy of the bill for 3 days after it was completed to get public comment on it before they vote on it.....apparently they dont want that though IIRC the vote was 11 to 12 or something close to that so it barely didnt get passed.....by the time it is out of committee Baucus's bill could be 1,000 pages long instead of the 250 it was introduced as.....by the time the senate gets done with it who knows how big it could be....
here is what frustrates me, Montana operates with a balanced budget and even had a surplus last year.....we have state run programs to help those who cant afford insurance, especially for kids in low income homes.....last fall i voted for increasing my taxes to expand this program as did the majority of Montanans even though my kids dont qualify cause we make just above the line.....once it goes into effect in the next few months there likely wont be a single kid in the state that couldnt be covered with health insurance, cause either their parents can afford it or the state will pick up the tab.....and yet we will still do it with a balanced budget.....and without a sales tax....
bring federal spending under control and ill be interested in looking at similar nation wide....but why in the hell would i be fore it when the feds spend more money than they take in.....push an amendment to the Constitution that states the feds must operate under a balanced budget, you and i have to or we wind up broke and homeless, why shouldnt the feds be required to do the same?
as far as the bill itself, they are required to give it to the public when its introduced to the committee but we technically arent required to see a copy of it again until after the committee votes on it and it heads out to the senate floor.....since Obama stated he wanted things to be "transparent" , or atleast thats what he preached during his campaign, now that he is in office his view on this has seemed to change, one of the members of the committee thought they should post the final copy of the bill for 3 days after it was completed to get public comment on it before they vote on it.....apparently they dont want that though IIRC the vote was 11 to 12 or something close to that so it barely didnt get passed.....by the time it is out of committee Baucus's bill could be 1,000 pages long instead of the 250 it was introduced as.....by the time the senate gets done with it who knows how big it could be....
here is what frustrates me, Montana operates with a balanced budget and even had a surplus last year.....we have state run programs to help those who cant afford insurance, especially for kids in low income homes.....last fall i voted for increasing my taxes to expand this program as did the majority of Montanans even though my kids dont qualify cause we make just above the line.....once it goes into effect in the next few months there likely wont be a single kid in the state that couldnt be covered with health insurance, cause either their parents can afford it or the state will pick up the tab.....and yet we will still do it with a balanced budget.....and without a sales tax....
bring federal spending under control and ill be interested in looking at similar nation wide....but why in the hell would i be fore it when the feds spend more money than they take in.....push an amendment to the Constitution that states the feds must operate under a balanced budget, you and i have to or we wind up broke and homeless, why shouldnt the feds be required to do the same?
Regarding jail time, the Senate Finance Committee just adopted an amendment to its bill (generally considered to be the closest to what will ultimately pass) that eliminates the potential for criminal penalties for U.S. residents who do not obtain health care insurance coverage. The amendment also exempts from the individual mandate to obtain health care insurance those people who cannot find insurance that costs 8% of their income or less.
Although not in the Senate Finance Committee bill (yet), the public option seems to be making a comeback in other versions of health care reform. Some of the same people who talk about government agencies being inefficient and wasteful are afraid of having to compete with one. These are the guys in the health care insurance industry. They own the Republicans. That's why there was no effort to reform health care during the forgettable Bush years. (At least we wish those years were forgettable. We keep getting reminded of the Bush years when we realize we are still in the midst of a terrible economy.)
After being considered for decades, there's finally a good chance to reform health care to make it affordable for all Americans.
Although not in the Senate Finance Committee bill (yet), the public option seems to be making a comeback in other versions of health care reform. Some of the same people who talk about government agencies being inefficient and wasteful are afraid of having to compete with one. These are the guys in the health care insurance industry. They own the Republicans. That's why there was no effort to reform health care during the forgettable Bush years. (At least we wish those years were forgettable. We keep getting reminded of the Bush years when we realize we are still in the midst of a terrible economy.)
After being considered for decades, there's finally a good chance to reform health care to make it affordable for all Americans.
That's some OK news coming out of this bailout for the health insurance companies that they're currently calling "health care reform". But like anything, I'll believe it when we're all suffering through it. I'm more and more skeptical all the time, and I was all for getting everyone care initially, but not like this. I can't believe they're letting Baucus run this bacchanal - he's the biggest health insurance money hamper in the Senate. Some 3.5 million dollars last year alone.
I can kinda see the reason for not jailing these people though, if they were inmates they'd probably end up getting free health care...
When did they decide to drop it from 13% to 8%? That's better but still insane... how the hell am I supposed to afford that? I don't have $500 extra dollars a month to send off to these greedy bastards. I probably only pay 1% of my income for my insurance at work. I can't wait to see what happens when this passes and everyone's premium's go up 10X. They thought the home foreclosures were bad before!
I saw this today: health overhaul may raise medicare RX costs a little something to look forward to as we get older along with the government having stolen our Social Security money and replaced it with peeing on our shoes.
"Do they owe us a living?
Of course they do! Of course they do!"
I can kinda see the reason for not jailing these people though, if they were inmates they'd probably end up getting free health care...
When did they decide to drop it from 13% to 8%? That's better but still insane... how the hell am I supposed to afford that? I don't have $500 extra dollars a month to send off to these greedy bastards. I probably only pay 1% of my income for my insurance at work. I can't wait to see what happens when this passes and everyone's premium's go up 10X. They thought the home foreclosures were bad before!
I saw this today: health overhaul may raise medicare RX costs a little something to look forward to as we get older along with the government having stolen our Social Security money and replaced it with peeing on our shoes.
"Do they owe us a living?
Of course they do! Of course they do!"
once again force congress to run a balanced budget FIRST.....than look at health care otherwise everones taxes are going to go up as well as you having to pay out of pocket for health care.....if individual states can do it, why cant the feds? anything else is just insane......push comes to shove its gotta be paid for some way.....our country going deeper and deeper into the hole is going to come back to bite us in the arse.....the deeper the hole, the worse its gonna hurt....why add on this "health care reform" and dig even faster and make the eventual pain worse.....this instant gratification BS is going to wind up killing us.......
---------- Post added at 08:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:33 AM ----------
BTW anytime someone starts screaming its the republicans fault or its the democrats fault just proves you have blinders on.....DC as a whole is a bunch of crooks......minimal exceptions, sure in the hell aint isolated to one party......Obamas attempted appointments to his cabinet should show you that....even with a democratic congress Bush only had a single choice blocked.....with a democratic congress how many couldnt Obama get through?
Bush was a moron and a crappy president but the double standard bout ppl who tore apart Bush looking the other way over the BS Obama has pulled when they would have skinned Bush for the exact same thing is deafening....you look the other way because of the (D) after his name.......morons..........
---------- Post added at 08:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:39 AM ----------
These are some great questions. If George W. Bush had been the first President to need a teleprompter installed to be able to get through a press conference, would you have laughed and said this is more proof of how he inept he is on his own and is really controlled by smarter men behind the scenes?
If George W. Bush had spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to take Laura Bush to a play in NYC, would you have approved?
If George W. Bush had reduced your retirement plan's holdings of GM stock by 90% and given the unions a majority stake in GM, would you have approved?
If George W. Bush had made a joke at the expense of the Special Olympics, would you have approved?
If George W. Bush had given Gordon Brown a set of inexpensive and incorrectly formatted DVDs, when Gordon Brown ad given him a thoughtful and historically significant gift, would you have approved?
If George W. Bush had given the Queen of England an iPod containing videos of his speeches, would you have thought this embarrassingly narcissistic and tacky?
If George W. Bush had bowed to the King of Saudi Arabia, would you have approved?
If George W. Bush had visited Austria and made reference to the non-existent "Austrian language," would you have brushed it off as a minor slip?
If George W. Bush had filled his cabinet and circle of advisers with people who cannot seem to keep current on their income taxes, would you have approved?
If George W. Bush had been so Spanish illiterate as to refer to "Cinco de Cuatro" in front of the Mexican ambassador when it was the fourth of May (Cuatro de Mayo), and continued to flub it when he tried again, would you have winced in embarrassment?
If George W. Bush had mis-spelled the word advice would you have hammered him for it for years like Dan Quayle and potatoe as proof of what a dunce he is?
If George W. Bush had burned 9,000 gallons of jet fuel to go plant a single tree on Earth Day, would you have concluded he's a hypocrite?
If George W. Bush's administration had okayed Air Force One flying low over millions of people followed by a jet fighter in downtown Manhattan causing widespread panic, would you have wondered whether they actually get what happened on 9-11?
If George W. Bush had failed to send relief aid to flood victims throughout the Midwest with more people killed or made homeless than in New Orleans, would you want it made into a major ongoing political issue with claims of racism and incompetence?
If George20W. Bush had ordered the firing of the CEO of a major corporation, even though he had no constitutional authority to do so, would you have approved?
If George W. Bush had proposed to double the national debt, which had taken more than two centuries to accumulate, in one year, would you have approved?
If George W. Bush had then proposed to double the debt again within 10 years, would you have approved?
So, tell me again, what is it about Obama that makes him so brilliant and impressive?
Can't think of anything?
Don't worry, he still has another 3+ years to go.
---------- Post added at 08:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:33 AM ----------
BTW anytime someone starts screaming its the republicans fault or its the democrats fault just proves you have blinders on.....DC as a whole is a bunch of crooks......minimal exceptions, sure in the hell aint isolated to one party......Obamas attempted appointments to his cabinet should show you that....even with a democratic congress Bush only had a single choice blocked.....with a democratic congress how many couldnt Obama get through?
Bush was a moron and a crappy president but the double standard bout ppl who tore apart Bush looking the other way over the BS Obama has pulled when they would have skinned Bush for the exact same thing is deafening....you look the other way because of the (D) after his name.......morons..........
---------- Post added at 08:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:39 AM ----------
These are some great questions. If George W. Bush had been the first President to need a teleprompter installed to be able to get through a press conference, would you have laughed and said this is more proof of how he inept he is on his own and is really controlled by smarter men behind the scenes?
If George W. Bush had spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to take Laura Bush to a play in NYC, would you have approved?
If George W. Bush had reduced your retirement plan's holdings of GM stock by 90% and given the unions a majority stake in GM, would you have approved?
If George W. Bush had made a joke at the expense of the Special Olympics, would you have approved?
If George W. Bush had given Gordon Brown a set of inexpensive and incorrectly formatted DVDs, when Gordon Brown ad given him a thoughtful and historically significant gift, would you have approved?
If George W. Bush had given the Queen of England an iPod containing videos of his speeches, would you have thought this embarrassingly narcissistic and tacky?
If George W. Bush had bowed to the King of Saudi Arabia, would you have approved?
If George W. Bush had visited Austria and made reference to the non-existent "Austrian language," would you have brushed it off as a minor slip?
If George W. Bush had filled his cabinet and circle of advisers with people who cannot seem to keep current on their income taxes, would you have approved?
If George W. Bush had been so Spanish illiterate as to refer to "Cinco de Cuatro" in front of the Mexican ambassador when it was the fourth of May (Cuatro de Mayo), and continued to flub it when he tried again, would you have winced in embarrassment?
If George W. Bush had mis-spelled the word advice would you have hammered him for it for years like Dan Quayle and potatoe as proof of what a dunce he is?
If George W. Bush had burned 9,000 gallons of jet fuel to go plant a single tree on Earth Day, would you have concluded he's a hypocrite?
If George W. Bush's administration had okayed Air Force One flying low over millions of people followed by a jet fighter in downtown Manhattan causing widespread panic, would you have wondered whether they actually get what happened on 9-11?
If George W. Bush had failed to send relief aid to flood victims throughout the Midwest with more people killed or made homeless than in New Orleans, would you want it made into a major ongoing political issue with claims of racism and incompetence?
If George20W. Bush had ordered the firing of the CEO of a major corporation, even though he had no constitutional authority to do so, would you have approved?
If George W. Bush had proposed to double the national debt, which had taken more than two centuries to accumulate, in one year, would you have approved?
If George W. Bush had then proposed to double the debt again within 10 years, would you have approved?
So, tell me again, what is it about Obama that makes him so brilliant and impressive?
Can't think of anything?
Don't worry, he still has another 3+ years to go.
