What's new
TerraForums Venus Flytrap, Nepenthes, Drosera and more talk

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

clipeata

  • #21
Hi Ram

I haven’t heard of any other clipeata sites being found, that doesn’t mean that there hasn’t been one found though. I do know that Chien Lee (the dude that rediscovered campanulata in west Borneo, when I wasted months going feral in east Borneo where it was originally discovered) gave it a shot and didn’t find it. Charles Clarke and I think even Andreas Wistuba have also had a good look at similar sites and lucked out. Clipeata was known to grow on Gunung Kelam which is a big granite rock, sticking out of a flat plain. There are other, similar rocks in the general area however as far as I know, clipeata hasn’t been found on any of them. This was the case with campanulata too. I looked around the general area at other likely sites and assumed it had been wiped out. Lo and behold it is found on the other side of the island!! So who knows?

Emesis

Yes, I understood what you were saying.
With regard to the clipeata problem, and this will also very shortly apply to a few others that I know of too; aristolochiodes now and maybe dubia sometime soon, I don’t see any other alternative to collecting seed, if it’s possible. As an example, the last time I visited the aristolochiodes site there were surely no more than about 10 plants left. Even if no one visited the site again, I believe that this is below the minimum number of plants required to sustain the population. I can’t accept that we should leave these fantastic plants to die out, ultimately because we have overcollected them.

Here’s my scene for a perfect world, which we all know this is far from, but….

Forget, for a minute, the fact that the gov. here in Indo has no money.
The government could set up a tc lab somewhere like at the Bogor Herbarium where there is some serious botanic talent, and interest. Employ someone to go around and collect seed from all the Indonesian species and create a “bank” of tc’d plants. These could be available for export sale as tubed plants. As well as making the plants ubiquitous and therefore unlikely to be wiped out, it would reduce demand for wild collected, employ a few people and generate some much needed revenue. This would be in addition to setting up proper national park boundaries to stop gardening encroaching into forests, employing more staff to police the parks, etc ,etc. Last but DEFINITELY not least, it would also include EDUCATING the local people, which is no mean feat. Without this, you would be pushing the proverbial sh*t uphill trying to achieve anything else.

Now unless some well meaning philanthrope with a penchant for bug-eating plants comes along this is never going to happen in my lifetime. The next best thing is what Malaysia has done. They have recognized that in these days of eco-tourism, their national parks and forests are some of their best assets. They have much better organized national parks. You couldn’t take a plant from Kinabalu if you wanted to. There is no rubbish, the path going up is still attractive and well maintained. In contrast, if you climb Mt Bromo in east Java, they have put CONCRETE steps up the side of the mountain – like something out of “Gone with the Wind”!!

I diverge.
Bottom line:
In my opinion, some of the plants are too far gone to just be left to repopulate on their own. Collecting seed, propagating as many as possible and distributing them as widely as possible seems to be the best way to ensure the plants don’t become extinct. Given the state of this country at present, everything else will have to wait, and until then, whatever plants that are still left need to be looked after and if we aren’t the ones to do it, then I ask you….?

Cheers, fatboy.

WOW what a mouthful!

(Edited by fatboy at 12:45 pm on Nov. 1, 2001)
 
  • #22
Hey, not to but in here but I was going thru a few sites and found some clipeata for sale
smile.gif

go here,
http://www.nepenthes.com/cat_list.asp
I hope this helps you out and yes they are rather expensive.
 
  • #23
But in any time unknownclown, specially if you have tips like that.

Next prob, minimum order US&#36500 for outside the US. Maybe I'll try emailing Phil and asking if I can pay him and he send it to me with a handling fee or something.

Thanks again. fatboy.
 
  • #24
No luck from Malesiana.. They don't have any for sale at this time and will notify me in the future if they do... (which doesn't even tell me if they have any at all or not)

I will try Orchids limited.. maybe I can find out where they originated from also.

Tony
 
  • #25
Yeah that would be realy cool if he could do that for you! &#36500 ouch! That sucks!
And hey, no problem
smile.gif
 
  • #26
I heard back from Jerry Fischer (owner of Orchids Limited). He says the clipeata are true.. they are clones from a collected plant from Mt Kelam. So I will order a couple and see. I tried their online ordering but it's not working ATM. I also sent him a reply asking for actual size of the plants since size 4,5 and 7 don't mean much to me and I could not find an explanation to what their sizing code means. (rather poorly put together website in my opinion)
Tony
 
  • #27
From what I now N. 2 new N. clipeata sites have been discovered. (I don't know where)
One site (I don't know which one) was destroyed by fire. (maybe this was the first site, other resources said that it was only overcollected ?)

Hmmm...
I personaly don't like the argument of "collecting seed now and than repotting the plants if they vanish"

Easy to talk about this now, but who will give away 10 of his mature plants in 20 years, each of them worth many &#36&#36&#36
(and than potting them out and watching them die because they can not adept to the wild climate ?)

Or trying to pot them out, recognizing that there is no habitat left wher they can grow ?!?

I would do EVERYTHING to protect what is left to be protected.

And if this means that newly discovered sites mustn't be described to excactly, that collectors can't find them easily.

Nepenthes is producing a great amount of seed, so if one (or two) responsible growers will take a few !!! of them (lets say 20%) and distribute (sell) them to some growers than (I think !) this would be ok and will help to establish a healthy population in culture.

But if only 5 people and each are taking 20% of the seed....
(and there are so many who want this plant...)
:eek:(((

Martin
 
  • #28
Fatboy and others,

Here are more philosphical issues... If nature intended for a species to die out, bz of weak genes, wouldn't it be best to allow nature run it's course?

Repopulating a rare specie should require some prior knowledge of the population size over the years. If a specie always were few in numbers in it's natural habitat, then man shouldn't intervene with the small population.

TC'ing on a limited gene pool is still not the best answer as the same genes are cloned, whether they are good or bad. Similarly, when reproducing sexually from low diversity gene pool is basically inbreeding, and that leds to weak offsprings.

I wish the enforcement of wildlife is stronger in many areas including the US. It seems that there are more people who simply do not care about the environment.
 
  • #29
Hi Emesis

At the risk of sounding like I'm one of those "I gotta have the last word" kinda guys (I'm not, I don't think):

How can we know if clipeata was on it's way to extinction before overcollection caused it's even more rapid demise?
The first time I went to the aristolochiodes site, and I believe that I was probably the first after Andreas, there were plenty of them. Admittedly they were very restricted in their range but in the area they occured there were too many to count. Now, as I said, maybe 10?
Once the plants have been affected by man, whether it be from collection, habitat destruction or whatever, it becomes very difficult to say that they were "naturally" on their way to extinction.

Secondly, I figure we have wiped out enough species that were definitely NOT on their way to oblivion that it is our responsibility to try and save a few, even if nature would have done away with them. It just seems a crime to sit by and watch something, even if it was a "boring" species (as much as any CP can be boring), die out and not attempt to stop it happening.

cheers emesis. fatboy.
 
  • #30
we are loosing an estimated number of 200 spezies each DAY !!!
65 million years ago, during the "time of extinction", when the dionosauriers died out, around 200 spezies vanished from earth during 10 YEARS !

(and there was enough time for evolution to "create" new spezies which could fill the ecological neeches...)

what we have now has absolutly nothing to do with bad genes or evolution...
Someone (I forgot the name) sayed a few years ago : "This is not only the death of spezies it's even worse... It's the end of birth !)

Neenths are "lucky" because they are "intersting" and easy to recongnice plants.
But who cares about flies, worms, algae, ...

@Emesis : how long do you think does the "spezies" Nepenthes clipeata exist ? 10000 years ? 100000 years ? 1000000 years ? I don't know !
But I don't believe that the plants genes are too week to survive...
The plant has survived long enough without the "help" of man.

Martin
 
  • #31
Martin and Fatboy,

My last post was a generalized statement towards gene pools and such.  If you read the second paragraph with a viewpoint of a specie that we do not have much data on, then my repopulation paragraph will make more sense.

Likewise, if you read the gene pool paragraph and replace N. clipeata with an animal, you can see the possible effects of breeding w/ a limited gene pool.  This is one of the many problems that mammal scientists are facing is how to maintain an endangered specie population alive when the population is small and not risk genetic defects resulting from breeding with a small gene pool.  Look at the Northern White Rhino (~30 count), or the Javan Rhino (60 in Indonesia, 10 in Vietnam), and you can see the possible birth defects that can occur from breeding.

I don't know and I'm not sure if anyone has extensive data to indicate how long N. clipeata and other CPs have been in existance, except for the Aldrovanda as we can trace them via their seeds.

I do think that man should try to reverse its impact on the environment, and do it for the sake of the species, and not man.  This can be interpretted as allowing nature to run its course when a specie becomes extinct *not caused* directly or indirectly by man.

Cheers,

Emesis

(Edited by Emesis at 11
wow.gif
5 am on Nov. 4, 2001)
 
  • #32
what a nice, FRIENDLY debate we have going here!

My two cents, responsible collecting in some cases is a must, Collection for FINANCIAL GAIN, is not OK any more, not with these plants...

The plain and simple truth is this, if Plants like Clipeata can't be maintained in teh wild becaus swine human beings take them for their private collections, or becaus e of fire, or plauge or what not, then it is our responsibility as people who love these plants to continue them on, to ensure that our children will have the opportunity to love them as well!

Do I want one? YES! will I grab one from the wild? NO, will I take seed of one if offered? YES, will I give ten of them up in twenty years? Probably not, why? Because, hopefully in 20 years, there will be so many of their children and tissue cultured clones out there that I wouldn't NEED to give up 10 or 20 of my plants... Do you all realize that back in the victorian era, before WW1 and WW2 destroyed green houses all over europe, that Nepenthes could be found in almost every green house? they were popular plants, and they are becoming very popular again! To protect those plants in the wild they must be readily available out of cultivation.

And if there aren't thousands of them in 10 or 20 years, Yeah... I would give up my plants... they don't belong to me, they belong to that mountain... that's where they should be if they are no where else...

I digress... BTW, why in the #### would I acclimate a plant to that environment? Doesn't it make more sense to just seed it with a few hundred thousand seed out of private collections? Could be a hard thing to engineer, getting all that seed there at the right place, and the right time... but We certainly could try...

I'll tell you what else, were I to get a few of these plants, and be lucky enough to get them to seed, you bet your bottom dollar I would send a good portion of it to Fatboy with the request that he sew that seed on that mountain. (and any where else he thinks it will grow.)
 
  • #33
Thanks Ram

Don't have time for one of my long winded posts but I do want to say that I am VERY confident that I would GIVE up any or even ALL of my plants right now if I thought it was the right thing to do, ie to repopulate a site. I said in a separate posting at another time that I find it difficult to sell my plants but this is a different issue completely. Heck they always look better in the wild than I can ever get them to look here in my garden.

Cheers, fatboy.
 
  • #35
I love the red speckling in the mouth of the pitcher... gorgeous... the whole plant is gorgeous...

Thanks fo rthe pic martin!

Fatboy... start e-mailing me any pictures you want put up, my site is about 1/3 done, I have redesigned it before ever publishing it! I need picture, and the photographer name for each pic... and if you don't mind, the name of each nepenthes as the file name...

mail to swinneys@swbell.net

Thanks!
 
  • #36
Martin, that plant is a real beauty...thanks for sharing your pics.
 
Back
Top