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Am I crazy?

  • #21
My 7 year old brother uses my ancient V-Tech Learning Computer that I used when I was his age.

Right...but your brother is 7. One commercial I saw showed a baby that was about 9-12 months old. All she could was slap at big brightly colored buttons. Gimmee a break. Give your nine-month old some human interaction, paddy cake, blocks and a good stroller and she'll be fine until she's older and "learning centers" are more appropriate.

Just saw another commercial last nite for a baby computer. Uh "learning center."

:comp:
 
  • #22
"Back in the day" (one of my favorite terms) it was thought that babies could not learn. So "back then" basically parents tossed the kid in the play pen and that's where they hung out for their day(sure, they went out for a bit or whatever, but surely they were not taught as much as todays children are. This has been confirmed by me talking to quite a few people that have kids older than me). As time has gone by, it has become more and more evident that kids CAN learn very well at young ages. My kids by about 9 months knew quite a bit of baby sign language. The really neat thing, was Laurel teaching her younger brother the sign language! So, not only can they learn young... But they know how to teach young.

Even more important than WHAT they learn when young, is just the fact that they are learning HOW to learn. While one kid may be more advanced or not when they get into school... and then be "dumbed down" the fact remains that they know how to learn better. So as they get into stuff they don't know, they are better at putting that stuff into memory.

And even if they are not learning "more" in school since they are more advanced... That just leaves their minds open to learning more from the parents and their environment.

So, all this comes down to young kids are learning... And need you to do it... does it really matter the method you're providing? I still don't understand what it is you have a problem with. ??? You don't think that 9-12m old baby was learning something with his mom in that commercial using that tool?

Also, kindergarten is more and more not a play grade. It is now a grade the kid learns at. I couldn't find a stat for the whole united states but I found this stat on a Wa. site:
Less than half of the state's incoming kindergarteners are adequately prepared to succeed in school, and students in lower income communities tend to be even less prepared. Among the lowest income kindergarten classrooms in the state, only 25% of students are considered ready for kindergarten.
Sure, this is somewhat talking about low income areas... but it was a fairly common stat I found for different states that a good % of kids not ready for kindergarten. I want my kids to be ready. No matter the method we use to get them there.

Toss a bunch of blocks in front of a kid and walk out.. they won't learn the colors, letters, or numbers... Set them in front of one of these devices... And they won't learn those things either.

Andrew
 
  • #23
I was at the store and my mom said "why are the toys next to the pesticide aisle" and I replied "cause they have lead in the paint" :D
 
  • #24
D_m that is kinda a funny reply :p until you're a parent trying to keep up with that huge list of "toxic" toys... :-\ It's not easy.
 
  • #25
Substitute one learning fashion for another, if you wish. It has been shown that TV and computer games do have a negative effect on toddler attention span’s, that there is no doubt. So skip the fancy stuff and go for something else that rewards the child for making something (if only for a more spectacular knockdown). Like a sandbox, or those large brightly colored cardboard building blocks that are lightwight, cannot be swallowed or harm the child if it falls, but can be used to build absolutely massive structures to the ceiling or to hide under… or engulf the dog. Those learning toys spoke of are limited in scope - you should teach it yourself to bond, not let an inanimate object do the teaching for you. Those things where the limits of the potential are only the child's imagination is infinitely reusable, because there are infinite ways to put it together (you cant "beat" building blocks). And children will learn to read and their colors in time, what importance is it if it is at 2 or 4, in the end?
 
  • #26
We're thankfully making some progress toward curbing the pollution of the physical environment, but our mental environment is a roaring river of sewage rising higher every day, unobstructed.

I can't decide which is ultimately more dangerous.

It's going to be a very strange world 20 years from now.
 
  • #27
Who said I was against young children learning?? I'm willing to bet a human being taught your children to sign. Right? You didn't sit Laurel in front of a computer when she was baby with an ASL program. Didn't your Mom teach her?

Children learn waaay faster than adults. And I have NEVER thought babies CAN'T learn. They are learning from the minute they take their first breath.

I just think children should be children and PLAY to have fun. If they learn doing it...great! If not, that's ok too. You can accelerate a baby or child's early learning but at some point, they will come to be at the level they would normally be for their age and cognitive powers. In other words, if your child has the big colored buttons to slap at when they are 1 ...and learns to count to 100 at 2 yrs old....he/she will probably still not be in the 7th grade when they are 6.

Let kids be kids! Don't be so all-fired set on them knowing how to use a computer before they are 2. I don't think young children NEED to be introduced to sitting in front of a computer screen when they are still babies. I'm not against early learning...I just don't think babies and toddlers need COMPUTERS.

REALLY...your kids will be JUST fine even if they don't have the latest and greatest in kiddie komputers. Most of that stuff is just marketing ploys to SELL stuff to parent's who are scared their kid won't be on par with other kids.

t has been shown that TV and computer games do have a negative effect on toddler attention span’s, that there is no doubt.

What he said. :)
 
  • #28
First off, I find it interesting that some people in this topic don't even have children. Sure you have views, but they change when you have kids... Trust me. Even if you're around kids alot (nephews whatever...) If I'm mistaken, and some of you younger folks have kids... I'm sorry in advanced for my assumption.

Second, I'd like to point to a article that points out there are people on both sides of this... Some thing learning computer stuff is good.. others not. My views seem to lie closely to those of Clea Winneg in the article. But I lean more so toward the computers are good... We see how much they are used by everyone now... and as time goes by, it will only become more.

http://school.familyeducation.com/computers/educational-technology/30195.html


I've already said that I think both forms of learning are helpful. So to those that think my kids don't have blocks and other forms of stuff for imagination use are way off base. All the cushions from our furniture, and every blanket in the house have, quite a few times, became the best fort in the world... Digging in the sand at the park next to "ahma and pappy's" house happens plenty often as well. And occasionally, they get up on my computer and bang the heck out of it to hear all the neat sounds Windows makes when it doesn't understand what you want it to do... The more experiences they have, the better I say.

Andrew
 
  • #29
Whoops PAK's response got in there while I was working on the above...


Actually, my wife and I taught her with the help of a website that had small video clips showing the moves....

I didn't say YOU didn't think they could learn.. but that was "fact" back during the era that I spoke to people about.

You say children should be children and play and have fun... my kids do find these devices fun. They bring them wanting to play. So mommy or daddy (sometimes both) sit and play it with her (them). So isn't this something your are for?

Again, these are not actually "computers" just an electronic toy with a screen... And some happen to use your TV as the screen. (aka a teaching tool... just like blocks, flashcards, etc.) So if the game wants your child to select the green circle, and that happens to be the middle of 3, and so the child hits the middle button... Is that much different than setting out 3 blocks and asking for the green one?

Of course the kids will be fine. As long as they know what they NEED TO KNOW to enter school ON TIME I'm happy. If they are excited about learning.. you're darn right I'm going to teach them more than is "required" by the school. I will not be one of those parents though, that thinks my kids only need to play and "be kids" just to find out they are behind, and need to enter school late. Proven fact: kids that start late, never catch up.

Also, I'm unaware of this tv/computer causes negative effects on attention span... Could anyone share a tad bit on that? What I do know... Is they will stop in mid stride to see certain commercials and such. That seems to catch attention ???

Andrew


edit:

And sometimes... they just gotta get dirty!!! :jester: (from Caiden's bday party)
 
Last edited:
  • #30
So why does drawing from my own childhood or helping raise my little sister make my opinions invalid. I find the suggestion that it does rather offensive. Not as relevant as your experiences, yes, but not invalid.


Also, I'm unaware of this tv/computer causes negative effects on attention span... Could anyone share a tad bit on that? What I do know... Is they will stop in mid stride to see certain commercials and such. That seems to catch attention

http://www.mindscience.org/murray_infancy.html
http://www.neuropsychiatryreviews.com/may04/npr_may04_excessiveTV.html
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-04-05-tv-bottomstrip_x.htm
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070510183143AA5Y892
Young children often are mesmerized by the TV screen, says study leader Dimitri Christakis, a pediatrician at Children's Hospital and Regional Medical Center in Seattle. The possible link between watching TV and attention problems is of great concern because so many infants and toddlers are frequent viewers, he says.

The American Academy of Pediatrics recommends no TV for children younger than 2 and no more than two hours of high-quality programming for older kids. Many children watch much more TV.
 
  • #31
Not invalid Finch... But I don't know a single person that has all the same views before and after children. As a child, my family (my mom, dad, brother, sister, and me) raised foster children. (Children taken from their parents for whatever reason) We always had 5 foster children under the age of 5 in our house, outside of my family. we did this for about 8 years. And we (the kids) were VERY involved in helping with these kids. From sitting with the therapists that would come and work with the kids (since most were developmentally slow) to help bring them up to par, to the nightly dishes, bath time, changing diapers etc... Anyway, I had way more experience raising kids than any other kid I knew. And the views I have now don't match what I had, right up to having kids. Trust me, when they're yours... it's different.

I guess it's kinda like the people who put down Chevy trucks... Even though they've only ever owned a Ford. Sure, they know the Ford has (for the most part) performed well for them... and they have ridden in their friends Chevy truck... But once you own the Chevy for yourself... it's different. Fill in whatever comparison you want here... but since I was talking trucks with some friends tonight, that's on my mind :)

Andrew

PS come to think of it.. maybe it was all my experience with these 5 year olds that could barely tell you they were hungry and barely even potty trained, has pushed me to make sure my kids won't be there. The struggles these kids had to go through in order to try and catch up were unbelievable. And to toss in the fact that they're not with their parents and would get a 3 hour weekly visit at most... These kids have a hard time. And what did the therapists bring and suggest for the kids? A combination of the simple stuff (balance ball,the shapes you put in the holes,the things you move from side to side on the metal rod, etc), and electronic stuff (Things that spoke with buttons, colors, words etc).
 
  • #32
Oh, you added links now... The first paragraph in your first link supports my views, does it not?
Viewing carefully designed programs for preschool age children, such as Sesame Street and Mister Rogers’ Neighborhood, can have positive effects on social skills and academic preparation that enhance children’s development in preschool, early school years and even into adolescence. At the same time, early use of screen media in infancy and toddlerhood, without the intensive support of parents and other caregivers,can disrupt the development of social skills that are normally acquired through consistent and continuous interaction with parents and significant others in the infant’s environment.

And

Most of the concern about this early viewing and screen time has focused on the lack of interactivity between the infant and toddler and his or her caregiver.

but this is about TV programming.. I'm aiming more toward the part of electronic learning devices, since that's what this topic is about. The other 3 urls seem to speak directly about watching TV alot. Again, we're not discussing that, and I agree kids shouldn't be sitting in front of a TV all day watching programs.

Andrew
 
  • #33
I dont doubt it will change, i believe you. Your right about that and even if i didn’t think you were, id have no grounds to disagree. But do take a look at the links, even if you disagree, because there is some evidence to back up their claims. The links dont say less tv, its no tv.

what it is saying is that it encoumpasses all electronics
The American Academy of Pediatrics recommends no TV before the age of 2 and less than 2 hours per day of total screen time after age 2. They recommend: 1) teaching critical viewing skills, 2) limiting and focusing time spent with media, 3) being good media role models, 4) emphasizing alternative activities, 5) creating an electronic media-free environment in children's rooms, and 6) avoiding use of media as an electronic baby sitter.
 
  • #34
Since i have no experince on it i suppose i will say no more.
 
  • #35
I don't think it is... That says no TV. As in, sit down and watch this... These devices PAK is talking about (as I understand it) is the electronic devices used to teach. Where the kid is involved. (with a parent) I interpret the 6 recommendations above as follows:
1) obvious
2) what tv they do watch should be good stuff (IE Sesame Street and Mister Rogers’ Neighborhood as said above)
3) you don't sit and watch tv all day
4) do stuff other than TV... IE read a book (use a leapster device? ;-) ) go outside etc
5)don't have a TV/DVD player in their room (duh IMHO)
6) dang near the same thing as 5... don't use TV/movies to "take care of" your kid

I don't think any of that is referring to the devices we're talking about here.


Edit for your Nija post... It just doesn't seem like we're all talking about the same thing here ???

Another edit: I am guilty of my kids watching snippets of Sesame Street and Mister Rogers’ Neighborhood, I really doubt there is any kid that hasn't seen ANY TV... but nothing consistent or long doses of for my children...
 
  • #36
My gripe is with the new "dolls" that are out for kids. Barbie was bad enough, an unrealistic woman for girls to strive to be. But now we have Bratz. Just what I want, my daughter to idolize something that looks like a friggin prostitute!! I swear that is a company run by pedophiles!!

My daughter is not going to be one of those kids. Last year she got a tool play set. This year she gets a microscope set.

I stopped reading the rest of the thread after this one from Pyro, so applogies if any of my points are adressed by someone else.

I understand your reaction to the Bratz dolls. They take it way too far. On the other hand, those parrents who say "My kid will not be one of THOSE kids" are usually the ones who end up with them.

Getting your daughter a microscope is great, IF she is interested in it. I thought long and hard about this while my wife was pregnant with our first. I've come to grips with the fact that the most important thing is that your child is happy. That means accepting their interests, even when they are what you feel they should be (within reason - if they have an interest in things that are down right dangerous, then you should naturally intervene). Our children are not our clones, and need to be able to express themselves without fear of being ridiculed by the people who matter most - their parrents.

I was a nerd as a kid - but I don't expect my daughters to be. Fine if they are, but but they can also be cheerleaders if that's what they want.
 
  • #37
I've come to grips with the fact that the most important thing is that your child is happy. That means accepting their interests, even when they are what you feel they should be (within reason - if they have an interest in things that are down right dangerous, then you should naturally intervene). Our children are not our clones, and need to be able to express themselves without fear of being ridiculed by the people who matter most - their parrents.

I was a nerd as a kid - but I don't expect my daughters to be. Fine if they are, but but they can also be cheerleaders if that's what they want.



+1

Very healthy opinion, I more so despise parents that become obsessed in the attempt of making their children into what the parent always wanted to be but never succeeded in.

Come on, stand back and watch them develop their own unique character and personality offering help and support where needed.
There can be a lot of enjoyment watching it happen.
Laying down a pre-designed format that a parent expects a child to conform to will do nothing but create a disaster in the long run.

PS;
Got rid of the TV's when the kids were in their younger teens, never owned one since, the results have been fabulous.
 
  • #38
Heh, ninja posts. Actually, I kept finding you had posted to my reply before I got the next one out so we never really were on the same page, I think, but that’s fine. I hardly meant to suggest that the practices you are doing is a problem at all, I hope you dint think I was criticizing you. I just don’t know enough about the subject to really respond to the learning electric stuff, so that’s why I ended the thing the way I did.
 
  • #39
No worries finch.. we were both answering each other as if this was an IM. lol I think the topic is pretty much over. The bottom line is, in a few years we'll start seeing the outcome of kids who use this stuff... Only then will we REALLY know, I think. It could be horrid, it could be magnificent... and it could be no real difference :) (I tend to believe #3 the most.)

Thanks for the conversation everyone :)
Andrew

BTW- I remember the first time I was nija posted (many years ago) it was like a week later I finally saw it and realized what everyone was talking about! hahahaha
 
  • #40
You are telling me MY topic is over?? Since when do topics have an "end"? ??? :p

I guess it's kinda like the people who put down [a Mac]... Even though they've only ever owned a [PC]. Sure, they know the [PC] has (for the most part) performed well for them... and they have [used a friend's Mac a few times]... But once you own the [Mac] for yourself... it's different.
:-)) Couldn't have said it better myself!

Ok. Now. While having kids IS its own experience and you develop some different attitudes, that doesn't mean those who don't have kids don't know anything about them or what's good for them. If what you said is true, then I would guess doctors, psychologists, counselors, teachers, etc. who don't have kids should be required to have kids themselves in order to practice? ???

I'm not against learning for toddlers! Of course its great to give your child every opportunity and assistance to learn and grow. But I still don't believe very young children need computers to learn. I think you have to look beyond the computer games to the broader message you are sending when you start sitting your kid in front of a computer so young.

You say children should be children and play and have fun... my kids do find these devices fun. They bring them wanting to play.

Of course kids find those devices fun because that's what they have been given to play with. Babies don't have any control over what's handed to them to play with. Don't give them a computer, they'd never miss it. Give them a ball and I'm sure they'd bring the ball over to you as well. I doubt seriously if a toddler can make much distinction between a ball and a computer button. Give them almost anything (including a wooden spoon and some pots to bang on) and they will make it a toy and have fun. Kids play with whatever is made available to them. Shoot, I played with sticks, rocks and mud and still managed to make National Honor Society.

So mommy or daddy (sometimes both) sit and play it with her (them). So isn't this something your are for?

Sure...its great if parents participate. But better yet--why not remove the computer from the picture. I feel parents (and other caretakers) are totally capable of engaging and educating their toddlers with shapes, colors, ABCs, numbers, etc. 1 + 1 still equals 2 whether the computer is saying that to your kid or YOU are. There used to be a toy with a hammer that a kid banged different colored shapes through shaped holes. Kids loved banging that hammer. But now...ya gotta watch shapes and colors dancing on a computer screen to learn about that stuff?? I don't buy it. I can take a child outside and teach them the sky is blue, the ball is round and grass is green. What about eye-hand coordination? Clicking a mouse vs. using hands to shape playdough, or imagination to build things with Tinker Toys and Lincoln Logs or draw with crayons or chalk. Computers require no imagination, no coordination.

As children get a little older, learning basic computer skills is good of course since computers have become so ingrained in our world. But toddlers?? Naah. There are SO many ways to learn that do not involve sitting at a computer screen. It's advertising media that is making parents feel like they are somehow not doing right by their children if they don't run out and buy the latest educational tot computer.

Get your wallet ready because there will be the onslaught of computers "necessary" to teach every age level. You better make sure you buy every one of them every time the latest and greatest comes out on the market or your children might not measure up to Joe Schmoe's children down the street.

Note that I know you, Dandy, have your kids best interest at heart and want to exercise and grow their minds. I think Laurel and Caiden would be just as well off, well cared for and have age-appropriate intelligence if you did not have any computer toys-- BECAUSE--they have caring, interested parents. Its my humble and personal opinion that toddler computer gear is nothing more than hooey for some toy company to rake in profits based on parent guilt. Tot computers are NOT necessary to give your children educational advantages.
 
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