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Strategies to send plant material for the price of a stamp
- Thread starter RandyS
- Start date
Thanks!Great proof of concept! I had someone once send me a VFT rhizome in an envelope with a stamp. It ended up being pushed out of the envelope right through the face of it. They put the envelope and rhizome in a plastic bag and delivered it.(but it was dried out and died)
That was the good old days of the USPS. Now you'd probably be fined.
Randy, this is a super cool project. @hcarlton - I am one of those lucky Midwesterners! I have been receiving plant material all winter, some temperate and dormant... Some tropical and growing... I have found that nothing has yet to freeze, it does get cold, but never frozen. More important than temperature is the importance of keeping the material moist... Many of the 'tropical' cp's can handle quite low temps in my experience.
I can guarantee temperatures are exceedingly important, and also that too moist can cause cold damage just as easily; I had multiple plants, including an Aeschynanthus, freeze in transit due to lack of heat and poor weather planning.
And the postal service does not have heated transport vehicles at all stages in transit; the temperature inside many trucks and delivery vehicles is very dependent on the external conditions and the volume within. Things can, and do, freeze in the mail.
Here's my personal experience sending hundreds of Ebay plants, almost all by Priority mail. I sold both indoor and outdoor plants. Essentially everything I sent was fine down to just above 32. At 32 there would generally be serious damage or death. A small percentage could handle a couple degrees more. Outside, I never had frost damage during the 9 years I lived at that location. It was zone 10, and additionally heavily protected by buildings and trees. It's a relatively mild summer climate, in the SF Bay area, with summer temperatures typically in the 70s/50s F, winters about 60/40 F. A lot of plants from the moderately high elevations in the tropics thrive here.
I never slowed down sales because of the season, and I never used insulated boxes, or heat packs. I did tell people in the description that the plants could freeze, and that they should act accordingly. Still, I sold many plants in the middle of winter to people in cold climates.
My return policy was that returns were OK, but they had to send back the damaged/dead plant for a refund. I gave no refund for shipping. Nobody ever returned a plant.
I'm not aware of a single plant freezing while in the hands of USPS.
I am aware of two examples of plants freezing after arrival. Once was in Cape Cod (or perhaps Nantucket) where a nasty cold front came through about 8 hours after the package arrived--I believe around midnight. The plant was a Streptocarpus. I was watching the package arrival time and the temperatures carefully. I was pleased that the box made it so far ahead of the sudden and huge temperature drop. The recipient later posted a comment that the plant froze, and faulted me for not including a heat pack. I have never sent heat packs, never offered, and he did not request one or pay for one. So that was a bit discouraging.
The second incident I sent Dahlia tenuicaulis, a tree Dahlia, to Florida. The recipient sent me a photo of a black plant, clearly frozen. That same day was following the first morning in years they had a freeze in that part of Florida. The plant arrived the day before the freeze. The buyer admitted he left it out during the freeze.
It's certainly possible there were other instances of plants freezing that I was never made aware of. However, winter never slowed me down nor affected what I sold. I tried to make people aware of the risks.
I had a much bigger problem, which was beyond my control, of people in areas with warm summers trying to grow highland tropical plants which were well known to be impossible. I strongly warned against this. This would be the equivalent of buying highland or ultra-highland Nepenthes to grow outside in South Florida. Of course the results were predictable.
I never slowed down sales because of the season, and I never used insulated boxes, or heat packs. I did tell people in the description that the plants could freeze, and that they should act accordingly. Still, I sold many plants in the middle of winter to people in cold climates.
My return policy was that returns were OK, but they had to send back the damaged/dead plant for a refund. I gave no refund for shipping. Nobody ever returned a plant.
I'm not aware of a single plant freezing while in the hands of USPS.
I am aware of two examples of plants freezing after arrival. Once was in Cape Cod (or perhaps Nantucket) where a nasty cold front came through about 8 hours after the package arrived--I believe around midnight. The plant was a Streptocarpus. I was watching the package arrival time and the temperatures carefully. I was pleased that the box made it so far ahead of the sudden and huge temperature drop. The recipient later posted a comment that the plant froze, and faulted me for not including a heat pack. I have never sent heat packs, never offered, and he did not request one or pay for one. So that was a bit discouraging.
The second incident I sent Dahlia tenuicaulis, a tree Dahlia, to Florida. The recipient sent me a photo of a black plant, clearly frozen. That same day was following the first morning in years they had a freeze in that part of Florida. The plant arrived the day before the freeze. The buyer admitted he left it out during the freeze.
It's certainly possible there were other instances of plants freezing that I was never made aware of. However, winter never slowed me down nor affected what I sold. I tried to make people aware of the risks.
I had a much bigger problem, which was beyond my control, of people in areas with warm summers trying to grow highland tropical plants which were well known to be impossible. I strongly warned against this. This would be the equivalent of buying highland or ultra-highland Nepenthes to grow outside in South Florida. Of course the results were predictable.
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Since it's directly applicable: here's a photo of a box I received today from the USPS, the package received directly from the indoor delivery room the neighborhood uses. These are plants that have been in postal service hands for the past week, shipped from the currently warm gulf coast and not exposed to temperatures below 50 degrees while in my hands. This is severe frost damage, that occurred while in USPS transit. And not by a long shot the first time I've seen this.
If you are sending to anywhere outside of your immediate area and conditions vary, without some sort of protection you are risking damage in transit. Ignoring that it could happen and not taking proper precautions is poor salesmanship.
If you are sending to anywhere outside of your immediate area and conditions vary, without some sort of protection you are risking damage in transit. Ignoring that it could happen and not taking proper precautions is poor salesmanship.
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So who do you think was at fault here, you or the seller? What should have been done differently? Obviously, you were aware of the risks of sending in winter, yet you ordered anyway. Did the seller also make the risks of freezing clear? Do you think extra protection of some sort would have helped?
The fault is ENTIRELY on the seller plus the postal service; I requested faster shipping and heat packs if possible since the shipping costs paid were higher than the shipping method initially listed (the former was used, the latter brushed off), expected what should be a fairly standard level of padding for shipping plants, and ordered at a point where temperatures should not have been an issue; also noted that if they could not be shipped at that point that temperatures would drop and the box should be held since heat packs weren't offered, which a responsible seller would hold until after if they couldn't manage to get it out before the problem period. There was zero mention about freeze issues in the listings, but that's moot in this particular case.
The plants were not protected in any way other than the paper towels on the root balls, so they were free to shift and roll about in the box, and while it was shipped at what should have been an opportune time that would have prevented frost damage even despite that the postal service delayed the package three times AND sent it to the wrong state in the process, thus preventing the box from arriving before the cold front came through and then in sending it north exposed it to far colder conditions than it would have experienced around here.
Ordering in winter is not a problem, if sellers are using appropriate shipping methods (I've received a dozen plus boxes over the past couple of months and sent out dozens, no issue when properly wrapped/insulated and heat packs are present, even when average conditions were colder than this). Improper packaging and ignoring that the postal service, and any other shipping service (I should know because I worked for one) can and will screw up with some things and can and will have boxes exposed to below freezing temperatures somewhere in transit, is the problem.
The plants were not protected in any way other than the paper towels on the root balls, so they were free to shift and roll about in the box, and while it was shipped at what should have been an opportune time that would have prevented frost damage even despite that the postal service delayed the package three times AND sent it to the wrong state in the process, thus preventing the box from arriving before the cold front came through and then in sending it north exposed it to far colder conditions than it would have experienced around here.
Ordering in winter is not a problem, if sellers are using appropriate shipping methods (I've received a dozen plus boxes over the past couple of months and sent out dozens, no issue when properly wrapped/insulated and heat packs are present, even when average conditions were colder than this). Improper packaging and ignoring that the postal service, and any other shipping service (I should know because I worked for one) can and will screw up with some things and can and will have boxes exposed to below freezing temperatures somewhere in transit, is the problem.
Sorry to hear you went through that. It sounds like a pretty horrible combination of seller incompetence, USPS delays, and bad luck with the weather.
I always told people that plants would die if they were exposed to freezing temperatures, and that they should act accordingly, and consider not placing a bid. I was extremely blunt. I was likewise blunt about cloudforest plants having zero chance of survival outside in the South; that routinely got ignored, and as I say was the bigger problem--lots of money was wasted. At some point it makes sense to allow people to act as they choose. Possibly one or two asked about heat packs; it certainly wasn't a significant number. As I say, I never offered one, and if someone insisted I'm sure we could have figured something out. But it never came up.
I don't think one can expect a seller to know the weather forecast at a destination (and that can be unpredictable) or at points in between (where?). That's the buyer's responsibility to communicate, if there's a problem. It's certainly inconceivable that a seller would suddenly include free heat packs in all orders once temperatures dropped below freezing at some point in the country in the Fall. I always sold individual plants in auctions, and it was extremely rare that I would send more than one plant at a time. These were typically auctions in the $10-$20 range, sometimes a little higher. Free heat packs would have destroyed even a small profit. Among the outliers pricewise were Philodendron 'Pink Princess' plants, which back then went for close to $100 for small ones. I was afraid I'd hear that one got frozen or otherwise damaged, and I'd have to refund that money. It never happened.
There are many factors that the seller has no control over. If they very bluntly state not to buy the plant if it might freeze, then that's what the buyer should do. I haven't sold much in several years; a few plants locally in the last couple weeks. The issue came up twice this winter. Someone in Lubbock wanted to buy a plant. I checked their forecast and it was for freezing weather. I asked if they wanted to postpone until it warmed up. That was the last I heard from that person. The other was someone in Virginia who I already knew. She asked me to save one, to send in Spring.
I did buy a plant online today, a Nepenthes. The seller says: "we only guarantee live arrival with the purchase of a heat pack and express shipping if temperatures are below 45F in your area." (I'm not going to do that). That's one way reasonable way to handle it. When I had Ebay auctions, I did not void any return guarantee if the plant froze. I just warned the person not to bid on it in the first place.
If communication breaks down between buyer and seller, that's obviously bad. Post office delays will happen, and of course may make heating packs pretty ineffective. I don't order much by mail; we have a lot of local sources. I did have a decent sized Begonia order a few years ago take 10 days to get here "Priority Mail" from Texas. Surprisingly, everything survived, all in good shape. I wouldn't order those in winter, though.
I always told people that plants would die if they were exposed to freezing temperatures, and that they should act accordingly, and consider not placing a bid. I was extremely blunt. I was likewise blunt about cloudforest plants having zero chance of survival outside in the South; that routinely got ignored, and as I say was the bigger problem--lots of money was wasted. At some point it makes sense to allow people to act as they choose. Possibly one or two asked about heat packs; it certainly wasn't a significant number. As I say, I never offered one, and if someone insisted I'm sure we could have figured something out. But it never came up.
I don't think one can expect a seller to know the weather forecast at a destination (and that can be unpredictable) or at points in between (where?). That's the buyer's responsibility to communicate, if there's a problem. It's certainly inconceivable that a seller would suddenly include free heat packs in all orders once temperatures dropped below freezing at some point in the country in the Fall. I always sold individual plants in auctions, and it was extremely rare that I would send more than one plant at a time. These were typically auctions in the $10-$20 range, sometimes a little higher. Free heat packs would have destroyed even a small profit. Among the outliers pricewise were Philodendron 'Pink Princess' plants, which back then went for close to $100 for small ones. I was afraid I'd hear that one got frozen or otherwise damaged, and I'd have to refund that money. It never happened.
There are many factors that the seller has no control over. If they very bluntly state not to buy the plant if it might freeze, then that's what the buyer should do. I haven't sold much in several years; a few plants locally in the last couple weeks. The issue came up twice this winter. Someone in Lubbock wanted to buy a plant. I checked their forecast and it was for freezing weather. I asked if they wanted to postpone until it warmed up. That was the last I heard from that person. The other was someone in Virginia who I already knew. She asked me to save one, to send in Spring.
I did buy a plant online today, a Nepenthes. The seller says: "we only guarantee live arrival with the purchase of a heat pack and express shipping if temperatures are below 45F in your area." (I'm not going to do that). That's one way reasonable way to handle it. When I had Ebay auctions, I did not void any return guarantee if the plant froze. I just warned the person not to bid on it in the first place.
If communication breaks down between buyer and seller, that's obviously bad. Post office delays will happen, and of course may make heating packs pretty ineffective. I don't order much by mail; we have a lot of local sources. I did have a decent sized Begonia order a few years ago take 10 days to get here "Priority Mail" from Texas. Surprisingly, everything survived, all in good shape. I wouldn't order those in winter, though.
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Plant material from Randy arrived today! It looks like the coin case may have cracked and the cuttings look pretty dry. Going to get them floating in some water right away and we’ll see what happens!
Edit: realized that what’s circled in red is not cracking but a notch for opening the case. Still clearly cracked as shown in first image and next reply.
Edit: realized that what’s circled in red is not cracking but a notch for opening the case. Still clearly cracked as shown in first image and next reply.
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Cuttings are in water now. The coin case clearly cracked and broke through the bag.
Perhaps using corrugated cardboard with a cutout as shown below would help mitigate this risk by giving it a more rigid frame with less force on the case. May also give it a modicum of temperature insulation as well.
Perhaps using corrugated cardboard with a cutout as shown below would help mitigate this risk by giving it a more rigid frame with less force on the case. May also give it a modicum of temperature insulation as well.
Thanks!
Yeah, that makes it a rigid envelope, I think. I think that makes it hand stamp only, and adds 40 cents, which I guess totals $1.03. I was afraid it would push it into the same range as a padded envelope or box, but I think if it's less than 1/4 inch it's still considered a flat envelope.
Maybe it's more trouble for them to enforce the policy than it's worth.
The question is, what can fit inside the small space inside the coin case. I haven't tried it, but paper towels might be too bulky. Is there something else that can be placed in between the cuttings, but inside the coin case, perhaps filling the extra space? Moist sphagnum? Again, there's very little room.
The other possibility is to put something outside the coin case, but inside the bag. It could even provide extra padding, but it could also clump up. It could also leak out if the bag is damaged, making the envelope perhaps rip apart. I was thinking maybe something like those polyacrylamide beads that are sold to amend plant soils. Perhaps those could be added inside or outside the coin case? Maybe crushed if necessary. I would worry that they come with all sorts of extra "stuff": salts, etc. Maybe soaks in distilled water would remove it. But I'd like to keep it simple...
Maybe just a drop or two of water inside the coin case would do the trick? That may be OK with many, but not all cuttings.
How about this: A bit of moist paper towel, or sphagnum, in any extra space inside the coin case (in between the cuttings, on top, and/or below). Additionally, a larger volume of barely moist sphagnum or paper towel outside the coin case, but inside the ziploc bag. Those could be moist enough to up the humidity without causing any leak danger.
And in some cases, just add a drop or so of water directly to the coin case.
It could still be a problem if the bag rips, though...Perhaps a solid layer of tape over the entire bag, so that the integrity of the bag is not an issue, would be a reasonable safeguard.
And in some cases, just add a drop or so of water directly to the coin case.
It could still be a problem if the bag rips, though...Perhaps a solid layer of tape over the entire bag, so that the integrity of the bag is not an issue, would be a reasonable safeguard.
