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Racism

RamPuppy

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well, let me say I continue to be proud of all of you for such an intelligent and witty, and amazingly, even somewhat humorous discourse on a very heavy subject. I think I speak for all the mods when I say that.

Some points:

I have no problem with the idea that if you are an american citizen you should learn and use English in your public speaking and transactions. I think it's rude for instance, to talk in spanish (since I live in San Antonio) in Walmart, I don't speak spanish but my wife is very fluent, and she has heard people brazenly talking about others in the store thinking they were going to be understood. One time she caught a couple talking about us, I had given my wife a hug and the man said something to the effect of "get a room" in spanish, my wife informed him, in spanish, that we had one at home and intended to use it when we got there. That shut him up real fast.
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but you see my point, on the other hand, many mexican familys come to San antonio to shop, and I don't expect them to know english, so, it is generally something that grates my nerves, but I just let slide because I know it's stupid on my part.

Also, I think racial profiling has a few arguments going for it (a very few) for instance, it can make a targeted search for a terrorist more simple. Take the recent news that two chinese terrorists were suspected of trying to get into the country with radiologicals for a dirty bomb, would you want the US border patrol to be stopping every chinese person trying to cross the border? I do.

As far as using it in department stores and airports, we know Ashley judd steals, not only caucasian, but rich, so no go there, and we had a white guy try and blow up a plane with his shoes, so, a no go there. As far airports go, I am all for 'equal opportunity discriminator' nervous and suspicious people should all get the invasive probing.

Right now we are at a point where we don't have the manpower to discretely 'scan' or 'image' every person crossing a border or walking through an airport, the technology is there but it is expensive, someday, hopefully we will have technology that can ensure our safety by discretely investigating everyone in high security or vulnerable areas, but not today, which is why rough shod techniqes like racial profiling are still used.
 
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let me say this though, and i have had agreement from many blacks or african americans what ever you wanna call them, there are groups that discriminate against the average white male too. i know when applying for college i just to see if it made a diff. i put that i was african american in a search to see if i would get more scholorships. i dont remember the exact number but there were well over 100 more scholorships that i qualified for by simply changing one variable. also i know people who are white, were born in africa, speak 2 differnt african languages in addition to english but were turned down for scholorships open to "african americans" because they were white.

now im not saying that these people dont deserve the scholorships, but why is it ok to be racist to the majority while its a crime if you are racist twords any minority?

just some thoughts i had.
 
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I sometimes forget just how racist the act of law enforcement can get... it's really unfortunate. Police have to be very utilitarian. They can't afford to hold onto lofty ideals when their lives are on the line.

We know race can't possibly have anything to do with crime on its own. But what can is A) poverty and the resulting desperation, and in some cases B) the human tendancy to emulate those most similar to you in order to "belong".

Since the majority of poor people are black (with hispanic closing in behind), by having a certain skin color a person is, in a way, wearing a "There's A Good Chance I'm Poor" sign... making racial profiling make "sense" in a sad, crappy, utilitarian sort of way. If it were somehow hypothetically more obvious who was poor and uneducated and who wasn't, race wouldn't even enter the picture.

And since the myth that race defines you is so prevalent in people's minds... I imagine there are many young black people in these poor neighborhoods who assume these criminal acts are the actions of black people rather than the actions of desperate hopeless-feeling people. And they feel that that's the role they're destined to fill in the future... when they could have found success if they'd looked past these superficial similarities in choosing their future paths. You almost have to wonder if celebrating race rather than discounting it has done these kids more harm than good.

I'm not saying this is how it always happens of course... just envisioning little scenarios that encourage the awful cycle to repeat. I sincerely hope someday we can find a way through this imbalance. History appears to be the cause... and maybe as that history gets pushed further behind us things can be allowed to progress. Once race and poverty are no longer connected, that sort of racial profiling will become useless (more useless, I should say).

And no I don't think all poor people are criminals... I think that crime comes from desperation, and there's a lot of desperation that comes with poverty, especially without the education to help pull you out of it. There are plenty of ways to transcend desperation when you're poor (and plenty of ways to find desperation when you aren't). Just have to clarify that because I know how people jump on these things in threads like this.

Again, a lot of this whole mess seems to come from people's inability to mentally detach superficial traits and character, even within themselves.
 
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[b said:
Quote[/b] (ktulu @ Feb. 15 2005,12:04)]now im not saying that these people dont deserve the scholorships, but why is it ok to be racist to the majority while its a crime if you are racist twords any minority?
"Positive racism" is what I hear it called.

Personally, the financial side of this phenomenon doesn't especially bother me. The majority of poor people being black isn't a coincidence from a historical perspective... so I guess it makes sense to encourage the additional help (for now). I haven't done enough reading on this stuff to form a solid opinion on it.

It's the social side of it that's always really bothered me though. Growing up as a white male it was hammered into my head that I didn't get to be special. All these people of different "races" and "cultures" and "heritages" were getting celebrated and applauded... meanwhile I was being taught that I didn't get to have an identity like this (not that I want one now)... that I was a dime a dozen... that I was completely expendable and replaceable and didn't get to have a face or a voice that anyone would listen to. I seemed to be born into invisibility.

I've seen through a lot of that as I've grown up, but I have to admit that all of this helped do some measurable damage to my self-esteem as a kid. And I knew nobody would care, since I wasn't entitled to any concern.

Just the way it goes I guess.
 
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[b said:
Quote[/b] (RamPuppy @ Feb. 14 2005,11:55)]well, let me say I continue to be proud of all of you for such an intelligent and witty, and amazingly, even somewhat humorous discourse on a very heavy subject.  I think I speak for all the mods when I say that.
It's probably because it's basically a one-sided discussion.
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I doubt it'll be one the mods need to worry about.
 

RamPuppy

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well it wasn't so one sided a discussion a few pages back was it?
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And "Positive Racism" can be a hot point too, some people think affirmative action goes to far, for instance when a caucasions test scores are far superior to those of an affirmitive action candidate for getting into med-school, yet the affirmative action student get's in and the caucasian doesn't. I know for a fact this happened to my former brother in law, who blew away one of his black friends on the admittance test, what is it... (memory) MCATS?) he was not admitted to Baylor Medical School though his scores were superior across the board, and his friend was admitted.

I am all for giving disadvantaged people (regardless of race) a leg up, but one would hope they have figured it out by the time they graduate from college. Here is a conundrum, poor white kid that went to a crappy overcrowded inner city school makes good and applies for med school, compared to a rich, privately educated black kid. All test scores being equal, if a choice has to be made between them and the school is still using affirmative action to assist in that decision, the poor kid get's the shaft. I am not sure affirmative action still works this way however, I belive there were some reforms a few years ago but I am not familiar with them.

Oh, and on the issue of exclusive country clubs and schools, Why is it that women feel the need to force their way into schools like the Citadel? There are hundreds of all female schools in the country, so I hardly see it as being unfair that all male schools exist, yet if a man were attempt through a court battle to get into an all female school, he would be villified in the press.

Sexism? Agism? too many sch'ISMS' in our society. some barriers should be protected (like all boys and all girls schools) others should probably go, but overall, I do think americans in general need to grow thicker skins, we have become such a "ME" country.

I read an article (pertaining to the defacement of Desperate Housewives billboards in London) where the leader of this group said "Free Speech ends where offense begins."

Excuse me? that is exactly where Free Speech begins being protected!
 
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[b said:
Quote[/b] (endparenthesis @ Feb. 15 2005,7:20)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] (ktulu @ Feb. 15 2005,12:04)]now im not saying that these people dont deserve the scholorships, but why is it ok to be racist to the majority while its a crime if you are racist twords any minority?
"Positive racism" is what I hear it called.

Personally, the financial side of this phenomenon doesn't especially bother me. The majority of poor people being black isn't a coincidence from a historical perspective... so I guess it makes sense to encourage the additional help (for now). I haven't done enough reading on this stuff to form a solid opinion on it.
i did not change the variable of income and the other that affected econimc status, so all things considered if i was a minority right now i would not be paying for school. most of the scholorships were not even based on income, only on race and scores on standardized testing(ACT, SAT, etc). Now how is it fair to in essence deny a white person the opertunity to go to school if they could not afford it, yet it is perfectly admissable if not encouraged to do the same for a black person. Is this not racism? regardless of what you call it, it violates the prinicpal of an equal opertunity for all.
 
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[b said:
Quote[/b] ] Now how is it fair to in essence deny a white person the opertunity to go to school if they could not afford it, yet it is perfectly admissable if not encouraged to do the same for a black person. Is this not racism? regardless of what you call it, it violates the prinicpal of an equal opertunity for all.

well they most likely are trying to cut the blacks some slack...imagine being opressed for 200 years.. i know i would cut more slack for them, its kinda arguing like back in grade school "how come the crippled kid gets to ride the elevator!"
 
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the individuals weren't opressed for 200 years. I think most blacks today aren't opressed. It's not fair to treat people differently because of what their race had to go through.
 
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well its diffrent when the other race dident go thru anything..your right i do understand your point but i feel like, wouldent you give your friend some slack if hes been thru so much?
 
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i think the present generation takes on the burden of what the past generation went through more than they should. With races that have been discriminated in the past, its the children i see that are bitter towards what happened, not the parents. The parents on the contrary are not. I don't think this is right at all, and if anything the parents should be bitter, not the children. Why would the children want to hold in feelings of something that was already "squashed"? Granted, there is still racism today, but it's much less and not enough so that it alters your feelings towards another race about being a "racist race" or enough for a race to hate another for discriminating them. Racism nowadays is more on a personal level than it is between whole groups on individuals.
 
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It's odd how some people will selectively take responsibility for the lives of their ancestors. It would be interesting to see what would happen if someone who spent a great deal of their life demanding compensation for the mistreatment of their ancestors found out that they were a direct descendent of a mass-murderer. I bet they wouldn't hesitate to say, "Whoa, don't look at me, I didn't have anything to do with that."
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[b said:
Quote[/b] (altrade212 @ Feb. 16 2005,5:01)]well its diffrent when the other race dident go thru anything..your right i do understand your point but i feel like, wouldent you give your friend some slack if hes been thru so much?
ok but i am a large part irish, and as white people go they were probably the discriminated against group there was. Where are the irish american scholorships, where is all the slack that should be given to the irish decendents? im not trying to start a fight here im just saying that it hasnt only been blacks who have been discriminated against.
 
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also i hate to say this but for alot of groups they bring the racism on themselves. where i work, i have noticed alot of times if a minority is denied a return for any reason, they instantly first accuse you of dening them because of their race then they say you are accusing them of something regardless of what the reason given is. This is an action that just furthers the preception of racism it isnt always something that is imposed by other but can be self-inflicted.
 
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If we all woke up tomorrow morning, the same color skin, the same color hair, the same color eyes, the same heritage, the same religion and the same sex...by noon some of us would find a reason to discriminate against the guy standing in line next to us.  After all, some of us would be conservatives and some would be liberals.
 

Cindy

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From this side of the world, we see more of racism against people with darker skin. Caucasians are often deemed to be of a higher class and to make it worse, people in the service line actually behave like it's true. Whites get better treatment in shops and restaurants.

I grew up thinking that the whole of the western world are having a better time than the rest of us but recently I found that racism is not alwasys white-versus-yellow-and-brown but it can be the other way around. A friend's father-in-law is french and he lives in Mauritius. There, he has been a target of racism all his life! The locals there have made his life quite unbearable. Imagine taxes going up by 150 folds! And private land taken away with no compensation!! He is not rich and soon he may have to give up his only home there.
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[b said:
Quote[/b] ]well its diffrent when the other race dident go thru anything..your right i do understand your point but i feel like, wouldent you give your friend some slack if hes been thru so much?
not only did the other race didn't go through that (in this case whites... although I'm not white... but even if I were...), they were the cause for what happened to blacks.
BUT that doesn't matter. You shouldn't pay for your ancestors did (should you?) nor should you get benefits for what others of your race went through etc... I think you should get treated equally no matter what your race is/was doing as long as you're not doing that.
and sure, I'd help my friend, but a whole race is not my friend and the individuals weren't the ones that went through anything.
 
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True but people need to live up to their ancestors. Many peoples ancestors fought and died to accomplish what we have now. It's not great at times but at least in the US we can change that. I do not think you should be allowed to complain about racism if you do not excercise your rights (voting, etc) inorder to change things.
 

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Last year I was given the opportunity to cultivate a friendship with a gal who helped me out with a digital camera issue. During the course of conversation it came up that she had taken a flight to North Carolina and when she got off the plane, she noticed a few impolite stares. At first I thought it was about typical guys, looking her over. But she said they were stares of hatred. I'm thinking, why would anybody be looking at her that way? I didn't know it at the time, but she is second generation Chinese. I was flabbergasted at the non-verbal treatment.
 
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