Butch, that watering system is pure genius, however simple is it. Its definitely something I'll have to keep in mind whenever I'm upgrading and changing things.
TerraForums - Carnivorous Plant Community
Welcome to TerraForums — a long-running carnivorous plant community established in 2001. Register for free to join the conversation, ask questions, and connect with growers from around the world.
NASC Auction will open in...
Read the rules first :)
NASC auction is OPEN!!
Share this page
Probably not, I have during the construction phase.... but I didn't before and probably wont this time neither. My basement is below ground level and stays pretty humid as is... so its not a major concern as far as their health. However, bumping it up does make for some nice looking helis.
Thanks mate, its still in development. I'm considering adding a small layer of pea gravel into the bins. This might give some protection from clogging the small hose up, but it's just a thought at this point. Aquarium open cell foam is another possible option for the end of the hose... etc
But first Ill see if it's going to be an issue to begin with.
I can tell one thing already, my growth rates are back to where they should be... Ive got new growth everywhere.
I'm interested in seeing others take this basic idea and improve on it.
Hey Butch,
This is shaping up amazingly. Quick question: why did you decide to use a siphon to drain instead of having a bulkhead drain from the bottom of the tray? With a valve, you could limit the flow to have it drain more slowly without the risk of a siphon not starting.
This is shaping up amazingly. Quick question: why did you decide to use a siphon to drain instead of having a bulkhead drain from the bottom of the tray? With a valve, you could limit the flow to have it drain more slowly without the risk of a siphon not starting.
Great question and one i had given some deep thought too....
using the siphon, the bin is allowed to flood before any draining occurs. This is going to happen regardless of pump output (as long as its working). The siphon has no choice but to occur as long as there is not trash stopping up the line. I felt this would give me a good "soak" time to allow the substrate in the deep pots to saturate. Likewise, the total drop is water level then allows good gas exchange in the root zone.
I considered a bulkhead fitting, but decided against it. I was afraid the balance between it and the pump output would be too fine of a line for proper operation. The flow through a valve would decrease as the static head pressure decreased, could be tricky to get/keep adjusted properly.
I also considered (and may still do it) a tiny bottom drain, just as a residual drain. But after seeing the siphon maintain itself long after the bin is empty (residual water draining from the substrate) I dont really see the need anymore. (my idea was a hose with nylon line in it, more of a wick system for any residual water)
Both are plausable options IMHO, but all things considered I like the siphon. As long as its not restricted, it cannot help but to work. Also, any drop in pump output from debris or wear has no effect other then a longer soak time for the substrate. The water level still stays the same.
Excellent question btw,
Last edited:
Beautiful setup mate...looks like its coming along. 
Any changes in color due to the light fixture modifications?
Also ...I was wondering, do u have a float valve in those trays? I mean...what if the tubing that recycles water from the trays clogs up....then your primary tube that is feeding fresh water from the reservoir still keeps pumping in water...and you could have a situation where your trays overflow. Having known you for soo long, I know you must have considered this already.
But... its the student trying to test the prof... Lets see.
Any changes in color due to the light fixture modifications?Also ...I was wondering, do u have a float valve in those trays? I mean...what if the tubing that recycles water from the trays clogs up....then your primary tube that is feeding fresh water from the reservoir still keeps pumping in water...and you could have a situation where your trays overflow. Having known you for soo long, I know you must have considered this already.
But... its the student trying to test the prof... Lets see. Float valves are not needed, the reservoir is sized to where overflow cannot happen. Likewise even if drain line does stop up the pump feed line will drain when timer stops the cycle.
Everything will reset itself and and the pump feed line will do the draining till the drain line obstruction is cleared. By nature the feed line is self cleaning.
So the design has a built in drain redundancy and water level failsafe.
Everything will reset itself and and the pump feed line will do the draining till the drain line obstruction is cleared. By nature the feed line is self cleaning.
So the design has a built in drain redundancy and water level failsafe.
GrowinOld
Not Growing Up!
And that is what makes an expert an expert! 
Using that big ol' lump of gray matter that rests upon our shoulders!
Always good to see improvements on earlier designs.
I have to get my shelves up & running anyway, so may give your design a try. (I was looking at the siphoning, but in a different manner. A little more overkill actually.)
I am still hooked on making "rain" (as is the live sphagnum!), so I may have to modify things a bit, but indeed the siphon is the route to go. (I will likely still try a siphon "loop" so I have some adjustment available, but otherwise the design is simple. And indeed, simple means less to go wrong or mess up!)
I just need to go thru my box of pumps now, to see if I have anything powerful enough, ...or not so powerful that it sprays all over! I did that once years back when I first started, & it was a real surprise! (And mess!) I have been using some cheap $12-$15 pumps from Harbor Freight for my other automated units, but doubt they will pump very high.
(Did you mention what you are using? I didn't see....) Also, what are you using for a reservoir? Is it on the floor or up on a low shelf of its own? (Less pumping to do.)
Again, thumbs up
Butch! As you tried to tell Uphwiz (Jimmy), automating watering of your plants is the biggest time saver you can imagine. It doesn't cost much to do & the rewards are great!
I would highly encourage anyone else here (possessing a small amount of "handyman" skills) to consider this type of improvement to their growing set-up. Especially with the ideas that Butch is willing to share with everyone!
Like they say, even a caveman can do it! (But then I don't know many cavemen here!)
[Well, maybe one or two...!]
(The thing I like most about Butch, is his ability & willingness to actually think, experiment & use his own "gray matter" to come up with developing ideas, instead of letting others do all his work & thinking for him. Bravo Butch!)
Using that big ol' lump of gray matter that rests upon our shoulders!
Always good to see improvements on earlier designs.
I have to get my shelves up & running anyway, so may give your design a try. (I was looking at the siphoning, but in a different manner. A little more overkill actually.)
I am still hooked on making "rain" (as is the live sphagnum!), so I may have to modify things a bit, but indeed the siphon is the route to go. (I will likely still try a siphon "loop" so I have some adjustment available, but otherwise the design is simple. And indeed, simple means less to go wrong or mess up!)
I just need to go thru my box of pumps now, to see if I have anything powerful enough, ...or not so powerful that it sprays all over! I did that once years back when I first started, & it was a real surprise! (And mess!) I have been using some cheap $12-$15 pumps from Harbor Freight for my other automated units, but doubt they will pump very high.
(Did you mention what you are using? I didn't see....) Also, what are you using for a reservoir? Is it on the floor or up on a low shelf of its own? (Less pumping to do.)
Again, thumbs up
Butch! As you tried to tell Uphwiz (Jimmy), automating watering of your plants is the biggest time saver you can imagine. It doesn't cost much to do & the rewards are great! I would highly encourage anyone else here (possessing a small amount of "handyman" skills) to consider this type of improvement to their growing set-up. Especially with the ideas that Butch is willing to share with everyone!
Like they say, even a caveman can do it! (But then I don't know many cavemen here!)
[Well, maybe one or two...!]
(The thing I like most about Butch, is his ability & willingness to actually think, experiment & use his own "gray matter" to come up with developing ideas, instead of letting others do all his work & thinking for him. Bravo Butch!)
Ah yes, 'tis the part I was awaiting also.
Agree. Really like the elegance of the simplistic, very-functional design (although with Butch's penchant for redundancy, having only one pump could be an issue). Now, I need to evaluate what it would take to create enclosures that would support this (as he shudders & runs off to do something more pleasant - like scrub the toilets ...Again, thumbs up
).Paul,
I have an identical bin under the bottom shelf of the plant rack. To find the ideal water level I pinched off the main drain and started adding to the reservoir. I stopped adding once the system filled the plant's bin to about a half inch above the pump feed line level.
I will get the info off the pump for you this evening. It was one that actually came in a kid's hydraulics science set that i use to have set up during open house at school. While its very small in size and flow rate, the few foot of static head doesnt seem a major issue.
Since the small fountain pumps are a radial flow dynamic design, their current draw decreases with any decrease in flow rate. I know it seems counterintuitive but HP=GPMxPSIx0.000583, so any reduction in GPM reduces current and load on the powersupply. (I demonstrate this to my students using larger industrial pumps with strobe tachometers and inductive ammeters)
If it was a fixed volume, positive displacement pump this wouldnt be true of course.... but being centrifugal we can get away with it and use it to our advantage in this application. Of course long term, we may suffer some errosion of the impeller due to cavitiation resulting from the reduced output (increased relatative velocity of impeller to liquid), but omg not anytime in the next few years
Ron,
I will have a redundant pump before too long.... but Im still pondering on that at the moment
You know me too well old friend LOL, you both do....
I have an identical bin under the bottom shelf of the plant rack. To find the ideal water level I pinched off the main drain and started adding to the reservoir. I stopped adding once the system filled the plant's bin to about a half inch above the pump feed line level.
I will get the info off the pump for you this evening. It was one that actually came in a kid's hydraulics science set that i use to have set up during open house at school. While its very small in size and flow rate, the few foot of static head doesnt seem a major issue.
Since the small fountain pumps are a radial flow dynamic design, their current draw decreases with any decrease in flow rate. I know it seems counterintuitive but HP=GPMxPSIx0.000583, so any reduction in GPM reduces current and load on the powersupply. (I demonstrate this to my students using larger industrial pumps with strobe tachometers and inductive ammeters)
If it was a fixed volume, positive displacement pump this wouldnt be true of course.... but being centrifugal we can get away with it and use it to our advantage in this application. Of course long term, we may suffer some errosion of the impeller due to cavitiation resulting from the reduced output (increased relatative velocity of impeller to liquid), but omg not anytime in the next few years
Ron,
I will have a redundant pump before too long.... but Im still pondering on that at the moment
You know me too well old friend LOL, you both do....
Last edited:
Update:
System is working awesome, I am very pleased!
OMG the maintenance level has dropped to practically zero, plant growth has surged and enjoyment level is through the roof... woot woot!
I think I will add a layer of gravel to the bottom of the plant bin. Something like pea gravel I think, inert and not too small nor too large.
The small hose has stopped up a couple times due to bits of sphagnum that found their way to the hose. Good news is system still performed as expected. The pump feed became the drain and emptied the bin when timer cycled off.
Pea gravel should provide good protection against this. I am thinking just a modest layer... 1" maybe.
It will simply act as a mechanical filter.
I have also added an air stone to the reservoir, this should provide benefits on several levels IMHO.
One other operational observation, sometimes the priming starts a little earlier then expected.
As the drain sucks out the last bits of water some water bubbles are left in the hose. Then when the cycle restarts and the water level starts increasing in the bin the air pressure in the hose builds slightly between bin and the water bubble. At some point this increase in static pressure over comes the inertia of the water bubbles and they begin to flow, restarting the prime. This only occurs occasionally and doesnt seem to be an issue.
Not a concern nor a problem, just an interesting unexpected observation... It could be prevented by increasing drain hose size but dont see the need at this point. The benefits of the small hose size outweigh any small variance in bin water level.
System is working awesome, I am very pleased!
OMG the maintenance level has dropped to practically zero, plant growth has surged and enjoyment level is through the roof... woot woot!
I think I will add a layer of gravel to the bottom of the plant bin. Something like pea gravel I think, inert and not too small nor too large.
The small hose has stopped up a couple times due to bits of sphagnum that found their way to the hose. Good news is system still performed as expected. The pump feed became the drain and emptied the bin when timer cycled off.
Pea gravel should provide good protection against this. I am thinking just a modest layer... 1" maybe.
It will simply act as a mechanical filter.
I have also added an air stone to the reservoir, this should provide benefits on several levels IMHO.
One other operational observation, sometimes the priming starts a little earlier then expected.
As the drain sucks out the last bits of water some water bubbles are left in the hose. Then when the cycle restarts and the water level starts increasing in the bin the air pressure in the hose builds slightly between bin and the water bubble. At some point this increase in static pressure over comes the inertia of the water bubbles and they begin to flow, restarting the prime. This only occurs occasionally and doesnt seem to be an issue.
Not a concern nor a problem, just an interesting unexpected observation... It could be prevented by increasing drain hose size but dont see the need at this point. The benefits of the small hose size outweigh any small variance in bin water level.
Last edited:
Paul, here are the pump specs for ya
Mfg. Jebao
Model: PP-388LV
DIMENSIONS :
ADAPTERS (2) 1\2" AND 1\4"-5\16" HOSE
PUMP HxWxL 2-3\8" X 2" X 2-5\8"
ELECTRICAL : CORD 6 FT
PUMP WATTS 12W
Volts 12 Volt AC
Volts 12 Volt AC
PERFORMANCE
A) 198 GPH @ 0 FT
B) 185 GPH @ 6"
C) 170 GPH @ 1 FT
D) 132 GPH @ 2 FT
E) 75 GPH @ 3 FT
F) 50 GPH @ 4 FT
SHUTOFF 59"
(I think their flow specs are a little ummm generous LOL, or maybe they rated it with 1/2" discharge)
Caveat emptor, has that mainland Chinese vendor feel to it but fwiw: http://www.ecrater.com/p/7966590/pp-388lv-195gph-submersible-fountain
Mfg. Website (probably a safer option for not much more coin) http://www.jebaopumps.com/products.php?product=Jebao-PP388LV-(185gph)-
Mfg. Jebao
Model: PP-388LV
DIMENSIONS :
ADAPTERS (2) 1\2" AND 1\4"-5\16" HOSE
PUMP HxWxL 2-3\8" X 2" X 2-5\8"
ELECTRICAL : CORD 6 FT
PUMP WATTS 12W
Volts 12 Volt AC
Volts 12 Volt AC
PERFORMANCE
A) 198 GPH @ 0 FT
B) 185 GPH @ 6"
C) 170 GPH @ 1 FT
D) 132 GPH @ 2 FT
E) 75 GPH @ 3 FT
F) 50 GPH @ 4 FT
SHUTOFF 59"
(I think their flow specs are a little ummm generous LOL, or maybe they rated it with 1/2" discharge)
Caveat emptor, has that mainland Chinese vendor feel to it but fwiw: http://www.ecrater.com/p/7966590/pp-388lv-195gph-submersible-fountain
Mfg. Website (probably a safer option for not much more coin) http://www.jebaopumps.com/products.php?product=Jebao-PP388LV-(185gph)-
Last edited:
GrowinOld
Not Growing Up!
Aaiee... carumba!
Thanks Butch!
Info like that is handy actually, as I often get some reference material & method info from the local hydroponics store, catalog & folks. Many a pump (in this case) can do some really nice "water-works", & how I first got on to thinking up an auto-rain watering design. (I do love that Hydroponics store with all its expensive goodies & cool stuff for growers of all kinds!)
Just a heads up, the local hardware outlets are sometimes having their fall liquidation sales without too much hoop-la. But with regular checking, I was able to get some 50-80 gph (2.5'-0gal head) for about $3 & a couple 560gph (14.3'-0gal head) for little over $11. (Likely enough to power-wash the plants actually!) It came to about 80-85% off original prices!
(The only way I can afford stuff actually! And my favorite season for buying supplies! The discount season!)
So my advice is to be patient & keep a sharp eye, as it IS affordable for nearly everyone.
Again, my thanks for your help & info...
& perhaps I will post some pics at some point when I am done. Likely won't be as simple or nice, but so long as it works & gets done in time before the winter season, I will be satisfied.
By the way, let me know what you think of what I put in your SAPE!
Thanks Butch!
Info like that is handy actually, as I often get some reference material & method info from the local hydroponics store, catalog & folks. Many a pump (in this case) can do some really nice "water-works", & how I first got on to thinking up an auto-rain watering design. (I do love that Hydroponics store with all its expensive goodies & cool stuff for growers of all kinds!)
Just a heads up, the local hardware outlets are sometimes having their fall liquidation sales without too much hoop-la. But with regular checking, I was able to get some 50-80 gph (2.5'-0gal head) for about $3 & a couple 560gph (14.3'-0gal head) for little over $11. (Likely enough to power-wash the plants actually!) It came to about 80-85% off original prices!
(The only way I can afford stuff actually! And my favorite season for buying supplies! The discount season!)
So my advice is to be patient & keep a sharp eye, as it IS affordable for nearly everyone.
Again, my thanks for your help & info...
& perhaps I will post some pics at some point when I am done. Likely won't be as simple or nice, but so long as it works & gets done in time before the winter season, I will be satisfied.
By the way, let me know what you think of what I put in your SAPE!
Nice setup. Interesting watering system, reminiscent of the hydroponics ebb and flow (flood and drain) system, with the exception that ebb and flow uses gravity drain rather than syphon.
Last edited:
nice setup and great looking plants
I've always thought that Heliamphora would be a good candidate for deep water culture (DWC), also known as a bubbler. I've seen pictures of them growing in water in their natural habitat, which would suggest that DWC might be a good option. I've never had an expendable plant to experiment with though.
<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/5Y0rbxnGcE0" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="360" width="480"></iframe>
<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/5Y0rbxnGcE0" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="360" width="480"></iframe>
Similar threads
