Meet your meat

[nepenthes_ak]

I agree on the Animal Rights Terrorists (just a way to put it)

Blowing up oil rigs is no way to solve what they do in slaughter houses.

Cheers

 

[Capslock]

I agree with Bruce. The facts of factory farms and slaughterhouses are important to know. People SHOULD know where their food comes from and how it is produced. We're so hung up on everything being the cheapest it could possibly be that abuses go on everywhere from slaughterhouses to sweatshops. It takes someone to get the information out for it to change, and I think everyone has some responsibility to know what they end up funding.

I'm a meat-eater, but I try to stay away from factory farm meats and only buy from reputable and ethical sources. And I don't hesitate to eat vegetarian meals often. Like the felafel sandwich I just finished. MMMM.

Capslock

 

[Jeremiah Harris]

rattler_mt you don't like elk hmm? Are sure, have you ever had a Colorado cow elk before? Next time you are come to the Springs I will have to make you something, like my famous elk Philly Cheese Steak Sandwich with mushroom oh man it make me hungry just thinking about it.

-Jeremiah-

 

[7santiago]

wow, what a responce, I'm glad to see some agree with me

health:
1a vagens live longer
1b my vegan great grandmother lived to 98, she outlived all but two of her six child family
2a countries with high vegan populations are the most fit
2b I dont think i have ever seen a fat vegan

yes it was a consentration of all the viollence that occurs but there is still extreme cruelty in these meat factories
3 companies dont care about animal feelings
4 companies rather expand than buy pain killers
5 companies rather buy growth harmones and steroids than painkillers

There are no magical nutriences that can only be found in meats
so why cause pain when it isn't necessary?
6 protien deficiency is extremely rare
7 cholestorole is produced in an organ in your body
8 we get too much calcium, dairy companies pay those idiots in congress to higher the recomended calcuim intake for adults.

THE ANIMALS WERE HERE FIRST!
geesh, its only a mater of time we "intelectual beings" begin to eat ourselves.

 

[moonflower]

i'm a diehard animal lover, but i also like my chickens marinated and grilled. kudos to anyone who can live without meat, but i'm not one of them. i agree with Bruce & Capslock: eating meat itself isn't morally wrong (check out your own dentition sometime... we have pointy, tearing teeth for a biological reason), but the way it's prepared certainly can be. unfortunately, as much as i'd love to buy free-range chicken and organic eggs and what have you, i'm kind of a broke student and i'd like to eat SOMETHING. economics and the wealth of the consumer is not a factor that can be ignored. i am also not averse to vegetarian cooking, it's cheaper than meat a lot of the time and safer to prepare. and i make a mean sweet potato burrito

one thing i would like to see is the ENTIRE food production industry become more sustainable. maybe not organic, maybe not perfect, but more sustainable. the fishing industry bothers me more than most... the damage done to ocean life and habitats in the past century or so makes Amazon logging look tame. and the extinction that comes with taking too much wild food is permanent.

 

[Capslock]

7santiago, you make some good points there. Veganism is certainly a healthy diet, one in which you have to regulate your protein levels and watch what you eat just like any other diet to make sure you're getting what you need.

However, the eating of meat is not the clear evil you make it out to be, unless you are admitting that the very animals we're saving are guilty of what you're proposing we don't do. Eating meat is a fundamental part of the entire animal kingdom, from meat-eating plants to blue whales. Our own evolution is the product of an omnivorous diet, and we're biologically equipped and predisposed to craving meat (though not exclusively so). I have a hard time judging the moral implications of something that's pretty much a universal biological trait. Hell, a lot of animals would have no problem eating US!

Capslock

 

[nepenthes_ak]

Quote[/b] ]we get too much calcium, dairy companies pay those idiots in congress to higher the recomended calcuim intake for adults.

Wheres proof of this?

Quote[/b] ]cholestorole is produced in an organ in your body

Dont we need more than what our body can produce?

Quote[/b] ]yes it was a consentration of all the viollence that occurs but there is still extreme cruelty in these meat factories
3 companies dont care about animal feelings
4 companies rather expand than buy pain killers
5 companies rather buy growth harmones and steroids than painkillers

You say companys dont care about the animals? Rember that Most Of the PETA actavists only use the Places that Abuse the Animals? Show me footage from every Factory place that has proof of EVERY company doing this?

Quote[/b] ]health:
1a vagens live longer
1b my vegan great grandmother lived to 98, she outlived all but two of her six child family
2a countries with high vegan populations are the most fit
2b I dont think i have ever seen a fat vegan

Well Health is also Heriditory, as is Age. Ive seen Many Healthy People who eat a healthy diet that includes meat. Just cause some one says they love meat doesnt mean they eat MEAT 24/7! Its a part of a balanced diet and some one wanting to take intereste in eating healthy.

Have you noticed how alot of the cases are Fast food joints??

thats the problem fast food + people who dont care about healthy diets= heavy set people!

I hate to say it But people who catch fish, and Spray pesticides is no problem in what youre saying.

Have a good day sir!

 

[Mokele]

Quote[/b] ]1a vagens live longer

I'd like to see some statistics to back this up.

Quote[/b] ]1b my vegan great grandmother lived to 98, she outlived all but two of her six child family

Annecdotal evidence is worthless. You cannot prove squat from a single case, which may have just been an anomaly.

Quote[/b] ]2a countries with high vegan populations are the most fit

That's because they're third-world countries where few people can afford meat and where most people spend all day subsistence farming. 12 hours a day of back-breaking labor makes you fit no matter what you eat.

Quote[/b] ]2b I dont think i have ever seen a fat vegan

Yes, that's called long-term protien deficiency. It's why even Buddhist monks are *not* vegan or vegetarian.

Quote[/b] ]3 companies dont care about animal feelings

Factually incorrect; a great deal of effort goes into finding the fastest, most humane was to euthanize animals. There is *copious* regulation for animal welfare in *all* situations; I know, I have to deal with them.

Quote[/b] ]4 companies rather expand than buy pain killers

Um, what? Have you forgotten that these animals are made into *FOOD*?

I like to season my steak a lot of ways, but I draw the line at sodium pentabarbital.

Quote[/b] ]5 companies rather buy growth harmones and steroids than painkillers

See above about the painkillers. And, unlike painkillers, such hormones tend to break down when cooked.

Quote[/b] ]There are no magical nutriences that can only be found in meats

Wrong: Vitamin B12 Without it, your kidneys stop working, and you develop neuropathological symptoms like permanent nerve cell death. It is *ONLY* found in meat from herbivores (being originally produced by bacteria).

And that Spirula stuff? Worthless, it's not real B-12, and is not metabolically active in humans.

Quote[/b] ]6 protien deficiency is extremely rare

Wrong. It's very common, but rare in the western world. Most people eat what they farm, and cannot just get 80 different fruits and veggies from the local supermarket.

In fact, protien deficiency is the *specific* reason one of the Dali Lamas signed an edict allowing Buddhist monks to eat meat.

Quote[/b] ]7 cholestorole is produced in an organ in your body

Meat does not automatically mean high cholesterol. Ever had turkey or chicken?

Quote[/b] ]8 we get too much calcium, dairy companies pay those idiots in congress to higher the recomended calcuim intake for adults.

Show me clinical evidence that we get too much calcium. From a peer-reviewed scientific journal. Then explain why osteoporosis is such a problem in old people.

Quote[/b] ]THE ANIMALS WERE HERE FIRST!

And what are we, rocks? We're a type of animal, like any other. Our brains are a trivial difference.

Also, does that mean I can kill all mammals, so that reptiles may once again rule? After all, they were here first.

Who was here first is astonishingly shabby logic, and I'll just pretend I didn't hear it to save future embarassment.

Quote[/b] ]one thing i would like to see is the ENTIRE food production industry become more sustainable. maybe not organic, maybe not perfect, but more sustainable. the fishing industry bothers me more than most... the damage done to ocean life and habitats in the past century or so makes Amazon logging look tame. and the extinction that comes with taking too much wild food is permanent.

There've been great leaps and bounds of progress in those areas lately, you'll be glad to know. Fish farming is becoming an economically viable and even profitable optian, and new greenhouse technology (positive pressure and hydroponics, along with the use of pest predators) may eliminate the need for open fields and herbicides/pesticides. Slowly but surely, we're moving to more sustainable ways.

Quote[/b] ]Our own evolution is the product of an omnivorous diet

Actually, there's more to it than that: one of the more widely-held and better-supported theories concerning human origins holds that our brains were *only* able to evolve because we either scavenged lion kills or beachcombed for shellfish.

Without meat, we'd be just another dumb ape.

--------------------------------

Of course, this leaves the entire ethical/philosophical area untouched, and that could be fun, given how the entire ethical basis of veganism is based on unsupportable and useless assumptions. But I guess that's for dessert.

Mokele

 

[7santiago]

Capslock, good point , i dont think i would be a vegan if we had nice little happy farms that produce our food, but instead we have factories that treat animals as a machine. A stupid creature they can do anything to.

nepenthes_ak

1.
PROOF? LOL, i laugh!

what more proof than the fact that every single country in the entire world aparently needs less calcuim,

clearly americans are special, RIGHT?

We are an entirely diffrent race and species. *sarcasm*

2.
Does high cholestorole ring a bell?
We eat more cholestorole than we need in the fist place that is why we have the excess cling to the walls of our arteries and clog those nice lil tubes that keep us alive.

3.
now this is funny, you think companies would care more for the happyness of these "worthless" animals rather than for money?

go on google, ive found out that
kfc and mcdonalds chicken providers has been boycotted for animal violence
just imagine those whop arn't reported

4. here i must agree, but those who exclude meats in their diets tend to be in the croud of the fit, i have seen many meat eaters that are amazingly fit and healthy.

sorry for the tone of slight aggersion,

good day sir!

 

[Capslock]

Quote[/b] (7santiago @ May 26 2006,12:15)]Capslock, good point , i dont think i would be a vegan if we had nice little happy farms that produce our food, but instead we have factories that treat animals as a machine. A stupid creature they can do anything to.

I agree completely 7santiago! That's why we need to know about these things!

Capslock

 

[7santiago]

HELLO again

mokele,

1.
here is a lil kiss of death
"A study published last year in The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition reviewed data from six studies that included people who ate meat less than once a week. The study also looked at new findings on the life expectancy of longtime vegetarians in the Adventist Health Study.

The authors of the Journal study found that a very low meat intake was associated with a significant decrease in death risks in four studies, and a significant decrease in the fifth study. Two studies also indicated that being on a vegetarian diet for a longer time contributed to a significantly greater decrease in mortality risk."

2. not tring to prove anything but instead an observation

3. thats true, i agree

4 yes of coarse, sliting an animal's throat and having it bleed to death is tooo humane

5. how is this an argue?
HAVE YOU FOGOTEN ANIMALS HAVE NERVES THAT FEEL PAIN?!

6 LOL kidney beans, brocoli ,spinach, brussels sprouts,almonds ,sweet potatoes ,cabbage, asperagus, and bananna all have b12
try again!  

7 VEGANS DONT HAVE PROTIEN DEFICIENCY! brocoli has 6 grams of protien per serving, spinach has more, lets not even start with legumes

when you only eat rice, its kind of hard not to die of some deficiency
FACT: IN CAMBODIA THE WORD TO EAT LITERATLY MEANS TO EAT RICE

8
chicken is only a little behind beef, check it out before you actually argue

9
no, it is not the quantity we get but if we can absorb it, deficiency in vitimin D or chemicals in prosessed foods can affect the quantity.
thank soda for ostroporosis

10
by animals I ment to exclude homo sapiens, im sory you couldn't derive that conclusion on your own.

good day

 

[Mokele]

Quote[/b] ]PROOF? LOL, i laugh! what more proof than the fact that every single country in the entire world aparently needs less calcuim,

And I say that you're flat-out wrong about that. Show me a source. I'm not going to believe *squat* until I see a source from a peer-reviewed scientific journal. Anything less is worthless dreck.

Quote[/b] ]We eat more cholestorole than we need in the fist place that is why we have the excess cling to the walls of our arteries and clog those nice lil tubes that keep us alive.

This is only tangentially related to meat, namely beef and pork and how they are prepared (fried, grilled in fat, etc). Lean-cooked beef and lean meats such as chicken and fish have little cholesterol.

And, I should note, that you need *some* dietary cholesterol for normal metabolic functioning.

Quote[/b] ]now this is funny, you think companies would care more for the happyness of these "worthless" animals rather than for money?

You are technically right about that....

...but that's why we have government agencies, BIG, POWERFUL ones to *make* then care. I speak from *direct* knowledge here; there are *several* government and independent agencies that routinely inspect these places.

Quote[/b] ]kfc and mcdonalds chicken providers has been boycotted for animal violence
just imagine those whop arn't reported

Considering the accuracy rate of the animal-rights crowd, that means nothing.

PETA actually bothered my university once because they heard there was animal testing, and they actually broke in and vandalized a lab....

...a PLANT lab. So much for their ability to find evildoers, or even find their way around a well-labeled building. I'm amazed they can tie their own shoelaces.

Quote[/b] ]here i must agree, but those who exclude meats in their diets tend to be in the croud of the fit, i have seen many meat eaters that are amazingly fit and healthy.

Define "fit", and present statistics to back up your assertion.

Just because you're thin doesn't mean you don't have high blood pressure or a weak heart.

Mokele

 

[Mokele]

Quote[/b] ]"A study published last year in The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition reviewed data from six studies that included people who ate meat less than once a week. The study also looked at new findings on the life expectancy of longtime vegetarians in the Adventist Health Study.

The authors of the Journal study found that a very low meat intake was associated with a significant decrease in death risks in four studies, and a significant decrease in the fifth study. Two studies also indicated that being on a vegetarian diet for a longer time contributed to a significantly greater decrease in mortality risk."

Interesting, but you conflated mortality risk with lifespan. Just because you're at lower risk for some things does not mean you necessarily have a longer lifespan.

Also, note that the study is NOT on vegetarians or vegans, but on those who ate meat once per week or less. You cannot generalize beyond that to vegetarians, as there are many more complicating dietary factors.

Quote[/b] ] yes of coarse sliting an animal's throat and having it bleed to death is sooo humane

Show me where this is used as the exclusive kill method, and I don't mean in places that were shut down.

Decapitation is not a humane method of killing, but it's often used in labs as a backup after a humane method, in order to be sure the animal is, in fact, dead. Throat cutting sounds like a logical choice for a secondary backup method, especially since, as it's not the primary, the chances the animal would be alive are minimal.

Quote[/b] ]HAVE YOU FOGOTEN ANIMALS HAVE NERVES THAT FEEL PAIN?!

Have you forgotten that without a function brain, they cannot feel pain, and that's why most methods of slaughterhouse euthanasia focus on the immediate and instantaneous destruction of the brain?

No brain, no pain. Period.

Quote[/b] ]LOL kidney beans brocoli spinach brussels sprouts almonds sweet potatoes cabbage asperagus and bananna

Is this in reference to the B12 or protien? If the former, you're wrong, no plant produces B12. If the latter, in what context is this? I notice that most of those foods are temperate or tropical. So what do you do if you're a poor farmer in a hot savannah?

Quote[/b] ]VEGANS DONT HAVE PROTIEN DEFICIENCY! brocoli has 6 grams of protien per serving, spinach has more,

And where do you get those veggies? The supermarket. Now what about the people who live in third-world countries, who have to grow their own food?

Veganism is a modern luxury, allowed only by the production of multivitamin supplements and the rapid importation and transportation of crops around the world. A century ago, veganism meant starvation.

Quote[/b] ]chicken is only a little behind beef, check it out before you actually argue

Read my post. How it's cooked is a large part. Lean chicken (skinless) is a lot better than a McDonald's Hamburger patty, but not terribly much better than a well-grilled lean cut of beef. What cut is used and how it's prepared massively affect the dietary quality of a food.

Quote[/b] ]no, it is not the quantity we get but if we can absorb it, deficiency in vitimin D or chemicals in prosessed foods can affect the quantity.

So it's *not* calcium deficiency, it's vitamin D deficiency that prevents us from *utilizing* the calcium. Big difference, and that doesn't mean squat about some vast, evil dairy conspiracy. In fact, they add vitamin D to milk for just that reason.

Quote[/b] ]by animals I ment to exclude homo sapiens, im sory you couldn't derive that conclusion on your own.

I don't draw irrational conclusions, and that's a doozy.

Humans *are* animals, like it or not. We're no better or worse, not spiritually superior, nothing. We're just smarter, and that has no more distinguishing value than the ability to change the color of one's skin to hide does.

Mokele

 

[The Griffin]

Interesting topic. Moonflower beat me to the pointy teeth comment, lol.
I was "thinking" you could not get the full range of amino acids from fruits/vegetables, but there are probably synthetic versions. I may be waay wrong
My battle is with the breads/starches. Doritos are tasty, but evil.

Cheers,

Joe

 

[rattler]

Quote[/b] (Jeremiah Harris @ May 25 2006,5:36)]rattler_mt you don't like elk hmm? Are sure, have you ever had a Colorado cow elk before? Next time you are come to the Springs I will have to make you something, like my famous elk Philly Cheese Steak Sandwich with mushroom oh man it make me hungry just thinking about it.

-Jeremiah-

ill take you up on that. actually i love elk, its much better than deer or speed goat or most any but the finest beef(some of my uncles beef from cows off his pasture land thats been properly aged beats it out though). bison is even better than elk. believe me i get much more excited about one of us having even just a cow elk tag than most anything else. a bull would be better but thats mainly cause the area i hunt gives out very very few bull tags.

 

[Ozzy]

Quote[/b] ]Quote
yes of coarse sliting an animal's throat and having it bleed to death is sooo humane


Show me where this is used as the exclusive kill method, and I don't mean in places that were shut down.

I have to disagree with you here. I have worked in two different slaughter houses, both for pigs. I have also seen how chickens are killed.
In one pork slaughter house (Lundy's in Clinton, NC) the kill method was a slit in the throat. The other (Smithfields in Tar Heel, NC) the method was a shot from a piston driven gun.

The animals were unconscious and the time they received the fatal injury. They are knocked unconscious by a device called a stunner. The stunner has two conveyor belts on both sides of the animal at a 45 degree angle. When the animal enters the stunner it runs up on the conveyor. It is lifted so up to a height of about 7 ft. During the lifting process, two probes are lowered and makes contact behind both ears. The probes delivers electricity between 600 and 1200 volts, depending on what the stunner is set on. Both places I worked had the stunner set on 650 volts. At the top of the stunner the hog in placed on a slide. It slides down to where it is killed.

The chicken slaughter house I saw was in Raeford NC. The chickens are hung by one foot. It's placed on a conveyor live that takes the chicken to a V shaped blade. The blade cuts the head off as the chicken passes by.

Not all animals in these slaughter houses are killed the same way. Injured and some some other animals are killed in different ways.

 

[Mokele]

Still, it's only used on unconscious animals in the case of the mammals, thereby bypassing the issue of pain. As for the chickens, decap might be humane for them, due to the insanely rapid metabolism of birds which would lead to brain death within moments. It's primarily inhumane when used on ecotherms, whose heads can survive for a substantial length of time separated from the body (in terms of half an hour or more).

Mokele

 

[endparenthesis]

Just a comment or two...

About the teeth: Gorillas have nice big nasty canines. And, as far as I know, their diet is like 96% vegetation (the non-vegetation part being things like termites and grubs). There are some other pretty good evolutionary reasons to keep big nasty teeth around...

I'm on the fence about the whole meat issue, but you hear the tooth argument brought up in every debate, and I just want to remind people that it has flaws.

And regarding what Moonflower said:

Quote[/b] ]one thing i would like to see is the ENTIRE food production industry become more sustainable. maybe not organic, maybe not perfect, but more sustainable. the fishing industry bothers me more than most... the damage done to ocean life and habitats in the past century or so makes Amazon logging look tame. and the extinction that comes with taking too much wild food is permanent.

This may be totally unrelated, but I don't think our methods are our biggest problem in sustainability... it's our numbers. There's just too friggin many of us. The world is too small to feed our gaping maw. I wonder where our population will be when we finally figure out how to make things sustainable for today's population. 10 billion? 15? Can our methods ever keep up?

I'm not disagreeing, of course our methods are a problem. Just a rant not directed at anyone in particular... wishing I could find hope for the future I guess.

 

[Mokele]

Quote[/b] ]About the teeth: Gorillas have nice big nasty canines. And, as far as I know, their diet is like 96% vegetation (the non-vegetation part being things like termites and grubs). There are some other pretty good evolutionary reasons to keep big nasty teeth around...

Canines in apes and monkeys are directly related to both sexual dimorphism and, more importantly, to mating systems. In a system like that of chimps, where, while status matters, everyone still has at least *some* chance of mating, the canines are small, while in systems like that of gorillas, where one male totally monopolizes a harem of a dozen females, the canines are large. They're such a good indicator of sexual-selection intensity that they're often used to make inferences about fossil apes and monkeys.

However, there's more than just the canines; our premolars also bear the mark of an omnivore, as does out digestive system both at the anatomical and chemical level.

I do agree, though; canines specifically are a poor example in primates, because of their role as a secondary sexual characteristic.

Mokele

 

[Est]

Quote[/b] ] I was "thinking" you could not get the full range of amino acids from fruits/vegetables, but there are probably synthetic versions. I may be waay wrong

There are combinations of vegetables and fruits which will allow for all of the essential amino acids; rice and beans is one combo if I recall correctly. There are others, too.

It's already been said, and probably beaten to death by now, but saying that animal production for food is like the Holocaust is one of the most idiotic, self centered, and generally offensive things I've ever heard. I wont go deep in to it, I already refrained from posting a rant on it. I'm not easy to offend, either.

Quote[/b] ]This may be totally unrelated, but I don't think our methods are our biggest problem in sustainability... it's our numbers. There's just too friggin many of us. The world is too small to feed our gaping maw. I wonder where our population will be when we finally figure out how to make things sustainable for today's population. 10 billion? 15? Can our methods ever keep up?

Well, methods of growing grain (say for feed) has become much more efficient. One of the biggest problems though is the polarity of the ag business. We've got jerks abusing it one way (Monsanto terminator genes, etc, etc) and jerks who say that any sort of genetic engineering is evil.

People often cite the organisms created in labs which feature a plant with the a section of animal DNA incorporated in to the plant's DNA, giving it a property of the plant. Tobacco with firefly genes, tomatoes with freeze-resistant fish genes, and so on. "They're feeding us Frankenstein food!" they say; but the fact is that these are lab created products, and they STAY in the lab. "There's no controll over genetically modified foods!" they say; which is absolutely correct- except for the FDA and scores of other groups closely monitoring genetically enhanced foods.

It's been stated before; veganism is a luxury, something that most people on this planet cannot live by and survive. Then we have people in this country trying to enforce THEIR luxury on other countries. There's the famous case where there were tonnes of corn that were given as relief food to parts of Africa were turned down because people in "certain" groups convinced the leads of those countries that the corn was dangerous because it was gentically modified! Scarey!

What's scarey is that people with so little regard for other people have so much power. They don't care about the starving people. No, their agenda is what matters. We have people who are completely out of touch with what the rest of the world needs, shirking the things that can help to save it.

I've been keeping up in this topic for the most part, but refraining from posting. However I'm glad to see that we've got a lot of well informed people here.

Now I'm not saying if you're a vegan that you're misinformed. By no means. I believe that everyone has the right to chose, and if that choice is that you want to eat meat or GE food to live, then by golly, make it!