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God's word

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  • #21
Well it started as "Just a joke" but then in got deeper than that so that's why I made my last post.

Well, that's just it. What is immoral to you, may or may not be to me, and visa versa. Neither of our views of morality are wrong, and neither are right.... for each other. But for me, my set of morals is perfect and yours is perfect for you, I believe. When either of us tries to change the other's morals, or one has the opinion that it's OK to limit the actions of the other and inhibit them from, for example, marrying the person they love or smoking whatever they want, then there is a conflict. To me, immorality is murder, sexual predation (pedophilia, rape, etc.), stealing, lying, cheating, non-self defense violence, etc. While swinging, practicing Wicca or any other religion, promiscuity, drugs, skimpy clothes, eating shellfish, not going to church, etc. are perfectly fine with me, because it's up to everyone to choose what we like, and what they do doesn't affect me, and what I do doesn't affect them (or you). One thing I'm against is polygamy, but only for the sole purpose that only men can have multiple wives, yet women can't have multiple husbands.

For example, what's moral and what's not today (even by conservative standards) is pretty different from 3 thousand years ago. To them, common place things today, like a woman being "head" of a family (hell, or VOTING or speaking their mind) or bikini's would be HORRENDOUS, but that does NOT mean that over time there has been a loss of respect for morals, it means that the morals have changed, and change is an important part of evolution.

Look at where we'd be if we all thought the same way they did 3 thousand years ago. I wonder how advanced as a society we'd be without change?
 
  • #22
Morality cannot be decided on an individual basis. Why...? Because then people could say: Murder is moral, rape is moral, beating women is moral, stealing is moral, pedophilia is moral, incest is moral...etc. So what if you think these things are immoral, if we're going to allow morality to be defined by individuals than anything goes...

That's exactly why God gave us the old law, to define morality.

Morality has nothing to do with women's rights and if you ask me the feminist movement hurt women more than helped women. Now everyone wants to be a Lindsay Lohan/Paris Hilton/Brittany Spears, dress in skimpy clothes and attract inappropriate attention (but are clueless when strangers make comments to them...). Women are being minipulated and reduced to sexual objects and the saddest thing is they are doing it to themselves! I'm not saying that they should be covered from head to toe in clothing but gosh there is a thing called modesty and most women my age don't know what that is!
 
  • #23
I wonder how advanced as a society we'd be without change?
No offense to anyone but look at the Middle East. Throwback to the 1400s. I can't think of a single invention or discovery that has come out of there in the past 500 years at least, and I'm trying really hard.
 
  • #24
No offense to anyone but look at the Middle East. Throwback to the 1400s. I can't think of a single invention or discovery that has come out of there in the past 500 years at least, and I'm trying really hard.

How could something good come out of the Middle East when then are ruled by ruthless dictators who control almost all the wealth? Survival is more important.
 
  • #25
I'm not talking about saying murder and rape is OK, I'm on a completely different level within the bounds of normal human behavior. In fact, it could be argued that anyone who says that murder and rape etc. is moral, is in fact mentally ill.

If women want to be like Lindsay Lohan/Paris Hilton/Brittany Spears, dress in skimpy clothes and attract inappropriate attention (which again is debatable on what you want to call "inappropriate" I mean Christ, they aren't nuns), then I completely support them! If dressing sexy makes you feel good, go for it! I fail to see how what they wear is relevant at all. At the same time, they also have to accept responsibility for their actions (getting busted with coke, DUI's.) Manipulated and reduced to sexual objects? No one makes them wear any of that stuff; they choose to. If I go out in a hot outfit, I'm most certainly not being reduced to a sexual object, I'm doing what I want and feeling good doing it. As far as modesty goes.... so what? Why should they listen to you? How is your opinion better than theirs (which would be, wearing "skimpy" clothes is fine)? What makes you right, without Quoting some Bible passage?
 
  • #26
How could something good come out of the Middle East when then are ruled by ruthless dictators who control almost all the wealth? Survival is more important.


You can't say that nothing good can come out of the Middle East. We're ruled by ruthless dictators here as well. The only difference is that they follow a different god.
 
  • #27
Since this has become more serious a topic let me ask this question. I understand that the old laws where discarded when the old covenant was made new by Jesus. Why is it though that only some laws appear to have been discarded such as shellfish and pork prohibitions while the one forbidding homosexuality has been retained (for men since it says a man should not lay with a man, Lesbians your still ok in gods eyes;) ). Is this not a case of men picking and choosing which laws they will follow? I want to see the part of the bible where Jesus said pick a few laws you dont like I will get rid of them for you but the one about the gays has to stay. This seems to me like man deciding what god wants. I believe that was the whole point to this "joke" that was submitted.

As for the Middle East, well unless you have been there I dont believe you have any right to say it is a throw back to the 1400's. If you have been there I would like to know what countries and when as I found the countries I have visted to be fairly modern though some of their social ideas like womens liberation could use some help, but they have bigger problems right now like the flood of Iraqi refugees, reforming their governments, economic reform (they all have high unemployment rates) etc.

As for feminism Outsider I believe you have a misconstrued vision of what feminism is.
Feminism doesnt encourage women to be like Paris Hilton/Spears/Lohan but instead encourages women to use abilities other than their bodies to gain success in life. It also teaches them that they dont have to be subservant to men and that they are not baby factories as the traditions of Abraham teach. It encourages women to think of themselves as equals to men in most senses though acknowledges that there are differences and that the differneces have to be accepted and that they are good.
 
  • #28
Ktulu's first paragraph says everything that needs to be said about the joke. The best jokes make the people laugh while making the powerful uncomfortable.

As for the Middle East thing, the Arab world was the bridge between the classical Greek/Roman era and the Renaissance. Islamic culture descended into mindless orthodoxy then; Christianity is trying to do it now. So not only do we owe them our thanks for providing the seeds of the Renaissance, we have to acknowledge they're well ahead of us in our mad rush to ignorance.

Moving along to the third paragraph, the people most bothered by feminists, gays, foreigners, (insert group here) are often those least likely to actually know one. And, after insulting fundamentalists in the previous paragraph, I'll add here that the people I know who are most bothered by fundamentalist Christians don't know any either.
 
  • #29
I have to jump in here. The OLD TESTAMENT laws weren't necessarily abandoned. They were simply fulfilled when Christ died for our sins.

What I wonder about is why people can make fun of Christianity (as in the joke that started this whole discussion) but if the same people make fun of the Muslim religion, they would be jumped on and told they were discriminating, etc.

I am a Christian who believes the Bible is the word of God. Both the Old Testament and New Testament are applicable to us today. Make fun of me all you want. The older I get the MORE I believe the BIble. The more educated I have become, the more I believe the Bible. THe older I get, the more conservative my viewpoints have gotten.

If I were threatened by this discussion, I'd put in a complaint. But God chose to give people free will. You can choose HIS WAY or any other way. The choice is yours and the decision about where you spend eternity is in your hands too.
 
  • #30
The majority is always fair game for a joke. Especially when they develop a reputation for telling everyone else how to live. At that point, making fun of them is the least we should do.
 
  • #31
To answer that, you'd have to ask whether a joke about Islam would be taken as offensive on a forum hosted and frequented by those in a Muslim-majority country.

If the answer to that is yes it would, then there are two very different approaches to humour over religion. You could then debate whether that was right or wrong.

My own personal opinion to that would be one of criticism as it is my personal belief that humour is nothing to feel guilty about and I believe God likes people to have a good laugh. There's certainly an evolutionary advantage - it boosts your immune system for a start.

Unless someone has a joke about the Koran? Seriously, go ahead...
 
  • #32
A complaint? We get topics like this all the time. Wait until the elections.

Actually I was thinking about that very thing today. I was thinking how it's OK to say "Gay pride! Black power!" but offensive to say "Straight pride! White power!" and it's because when a persecuted minority says it, it's viewed as a good thing, to be proud and stand up for yourself, but when the majority says it it's seen as oppressive and hateful, weather it's intentions were benign or not.


It's interesting how you mention you can choose where you spend eternity, in this context. Look at me, I love God, I've accepted Jesus as my personal savior, and I can remain secular. Last time I checked, it's about faith in Christ and not about works or liberal or conservative ideologies. You can believe in God and not be religious, and it took me a while to understand that.
 
  • #33
The intent and subject of a "joke" make a huge differnce. The "joke" presented here points out the idiosyncrasies of the bible. If you "joke" points out controdictions in the Qu'ran then I see know reason why it would be found any more objectionable than the one that started this topic. Now if your "joke" ends with an explosion or something that is a stereotype then I would say it is objectionable compared to the previous "joke". Also you have to consider if the joke increases the false precetions that help to promote an unfounded fear of those who are differnt regaurdless of who the joke is aimed at.
 
  • #34
Someone would have to be very courageous or very nuts to openly joke about Islam in an Muslim society. That's why so many of us are so frightened about Christian fundamentalists taking control here.

When you look in the eyes of a fundamentalist, you see the back of his/her head. Whether it's a fundamentalist Christian, Muslim, capitalist, communist, environmentalist, individualist or whatever. Life is complicated and we often have to make decisions based on incomplete information and guestimates of risks. Not based on blind adherence to some doctrine, whether it's a unique set of personal beliefs or is shared with millions of others. We just have to muddle through and hope we choose a path that cause the least pain.
 
  • #35
If you "joke" points out controdictions in the Qu'ran then I see know reason why it would be found any more objectionable than the one that started this topic

Because it's a sin to speak out against Islam, and do you really think someone who beleives Muslims are supposed to rule the world, and wants to slowly saw your head off with a dull blade because you aren't Muslim would have a hearty chuckle and go on with their life after someone joked about the koran? I think not.

About the Middle East, no I've never been, and to be honest, any of those countreis are not in my top 150 places I'd like to go. Ideology there has not changed in 500 years. Its infected and destroyed people's minds so much that even women in America still wear the burka. Any woman would have to be mentally ill to want to continue to wear that in any free country. Now aside from the fact that they don't respect women, still hang persons for being gay, and think stoning is an acceptable punishment, they are more than willing to chop of your hands for stealing something. That sounds pretty Draconian to me, which validates the fact that the Middle East is a throwback to the dark ages. We're talking about people who don't believe in science (hey, the South used to be like that), and are ready to kill you in the blink of an eye.

Some of those people are still nomadic even...if thats not 1400s, I don't know what is.

I realize they were responsible for some very early inventions/breakthroughs prior to the 1500s, but for the past 500 years that region has been too busy killing each other and others "because Allah told them to". Like I said, no inventions or advancements in 500 years.
 
  • #36
Because it's a sin to speak out against Islam, and do you really think someone who beleives Muslims are supposed to rule the world, and wants to slowly saw your head off with a dull blade because you aren't Muslim would have a hearty chuckle and go on with their life after someone joked about the koran? I think not.

About the Middle East, no I've never been, and to be honest, any of those countreis are not in my top 150 places I'd like to go. Ideology there has not changed in 500 years. Its infected and destroyed people's minds so much that even women in America still wear the burka. Any woman would have to be mentally ill to want to continue to wear that in any free country. Now aside from the fact that they don't respect women, still hang persons for being gay, and think stoning is an acceptable punishment, they are more than willing to chop of your hands for stealing something. That sounds pretty Draconian to me, which validates the fact that the Middle East is a throwback to the dark ages. We're talking about people who don't believe in science (hey, the South used to be like that), and are ready to kill you in the blink of an eye.

Some of those people are still nomadic even...if thats not 1400s, I don't know what is.

I realize they were responsible for some very early inventions/breakthroughs prior to the 1500s, but for the past 500 years that region has been too busy killing each other and others "because Allah told them to". Like I said, no inventions or advancements in 500 years.


Wow, I truely pity you if this is what you believe. I am not going to say any more than you have no right or ability to tell me or anyone else how things are in the Middle East when you have never been there. I have never been to China hence the fact that I dont go around telling everyone the way things are in China and what people believe there. I have been to the Middle East however and can say that much of what you say is false.

As for nomads yes there are still nomads in the middle east however in that enviroment you cant keep your animals in anyone place for very long or else you exhaust the food sources there. They do however use modern technology. Seriously whats so 1400's about being a nomad? Whats so great about sedintary totalitarian agriculture? (If you dont understand what Totalitarian Agricaulture is take jiana54's advice and read The Story of B)

Oh and for people not believing in science you forgot to include Kansas.

Also you are allowed to discuss and debate subjects in the Qu'ran as I had many discussion with Muslims while I was in the Jordan and the two people there were from differnet sects one Shi'a and one Sunni and they would disagree and yet it was acceptable for both to argue and discuss and neither one of them wished any harm to the other and no one ended up getting their head cut off with a dull blade as you seem to think happens.
 
  • #37
This attitude is brought on by the media only showing the fanatics who are willing to kill and die, quite eagerly I might add. The news doesn't show Joe Schmoe ( I guess in this case it would be Mohammed Jassim Ali ), who's worried about staying alive in a war zone and protecting his family, because no one cares about the average Iraqi. What do you expect them to say? "This just in! Some dude in Iraq isn't doing anything particularly interesting at all! Stay tuned for the developing story!" No, they only show "Crazy Muslims want to kill you and your childen! " and "POSSIBLE TERROR PLOT! SUSPICIOUS WHITE POWDER FOUND IN NOSE OF CONGRESSMAN!"

Places like Jordan and Dubai are pretty secular, considering the culture and where they are at. I'd very much like to visit them one day. I hear the shopping is on par with Vegas. I'm totally jealous of that new aquarium Dubai is planning! People seem to forget about places like these, and only remember images on TV of religious nuts in a desert wasteland.
 
  • #38
Money trumps ideology. That explains not only Dubai, but also Atlanta too. And Manhattan, Hollywood, Dallas . . .
 
  • #39
This attitude is brought on by the media only showing the fanatics who are willing to kill and die, quite eagerly I might add. The news doesn't show Joe Schmoe ( I guess in this case it would be Mohammed Jassim Ali ), who's worried about staying alive in a war zone and protecting his family, because no one cares about the average Iraqi

Hearing this over and over again makes me sick. The difference between "normal" Muslims and the "extremists" are that the extremists are plotting to kill people. The "average Muslim" is almost as guilty for not stopping the "extremists". I'm tired of hearing that "Islam is a religion of peace", which is obviously the opposite of the truth. Look what goes on in Indonesia. Muslims need to step back and really evaulate their religion. If anyone should be eradicating the "extremists" its the "normal" Muslims. The "extremists" is why the whole of Islam looks like bloodthirsty people with no respect for life.

And as far as I'm concerned, I have every right to talk about the Middle East. Just because I haven't been there doesn't mean those things don't happen. I wasn't in Germany during the 30s/40s...does that mean I can't talk about that, and the Holocaust didn't happen? Funny that some Muslims actually believe that it didn't, too...
Then again, I'm sure no one was after you because you're a practicing Muslim. If I, a white athiest went there, well we know what would happen...
Why would anyone want to visit a place that stomps out individuality anyway? Thats why there have been no advances there. While it may be all fun and games for you, rational persons would never want to live in a place where they not only can't be themselves, but are even killed for it. You can't even see boobs over there. Any religion that doesn't condone boobs isn't a good one in my book.
 
  • #40
That might explain why you're an atheist.
 
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