California supreme court overturns gay marriage ban

[JB_OrchidGuy]

hot damn Scotty. I never thought if it like that, but your post makes perfect sense to me!!!

 

[JRFxtreme]

I'm saying you could make the argument that incest IS a crime with victims, with the damage being done mentally to one or both people.

If its consensual, in what way would it be mentally damaging other than the social stigma attached?

 

[Outsiders71]

Then why did Jesus turn water into wine? It intoxicates your mind.

It doesn't intoxicate you, you intoxicate you. You have to purposefully consume an amount to make yourself intoxicated.

 

[Clint]

If its consensual, in what way would it be mentally damaging other than the social stigma attached?

It raises the question of any psychological conditioning that may have taken place. Sort of a pseudo-Stockholm syndrome.

 

[ktulu]

Someone touched on this but only briefly so here is how I see it.To argue that legally gays should not be able to marry but should get equal rights is like saying we should start constructing buildings that have white and colored bathrooms again. We should re-segregate our schools. The reason this is a big deal is that unless the state recognizes that gender is not important in legal marriages then we still have segregated country that is discriminatory. As for polygamy well based on outsiders definition of marriage being a religious institution then it should be allowed as many religions allow polygamy, including Islam which is the fastest growing religion in the world and actually worships the same God Christians do. As for same sex marriages there are several religions that accept that too, none of the traditions of Ibrahim (Abraham), so unless we have a Christian theocracy we cant pick and choose which religion we use. I am unaware of a religion that allows marriage to animals however so thats out.

As for animals and consent the only animal I can think of that I would even consider the possibility of being able to give concent would be Bonobos. Though if one examines Kanzi, who is the Albert Einstein of Bonobos, barely can grasp the rudiments of human language much less some abstract thought like consenting to marriage.

To use your analogy of a woman really loving her horse, I really loved my ex-girlfriend but she did not agree in the end, should I have been able to marry her since I consented and you seem to think that consent only has to come from one party in a marriage. I mean why would she be any different than the horse. (if she ever read this she would find me and kill me for saying that). I am using your same line of logic since I loved her just as much as that hypothetical woman loves her horse. Do you see the ludicrous nature of making that statement, you are setting it up so as long as one person consents they can marry who ever they want regardless of how the other feels.

 

[Outsiders71]

ok..im not done yet..one more point.

in order for the Christian anti-gay position to make any sense and to be remotely valid, homosexuality has to be a CHOICE..you have to CHOOSE to be gay, and CHOOSE to therefore commit the sin of homosexuality..

because anti-gay christians certainty can never admit that gays are BORN gay..
that wont work..because if they were born Gay that would mean God MADE them gay..
and if God made them gay, then how can it possibly be a sin right?

so these Christians, amazingly, have to believe that gays CHOOSE to be gay..
that position is so amazingly laughable its pathetic..
and there is a very easy way to prove its wrong..
simply ASK any gay person who has ever lived!
ask them if they have a choice!

and if was a simple choice, like choosing to smoke or do drugs or commit adultry,
why have so many gay teenagers commited suicide?
why was it such a big deal that they had to kill themselves because their so-called "Christian" society told them they were evil?
why couldnt they just say "well..this gay expirement of mine isnt working out so well for me..I guess I should just "switch back" and be straight now.."

why cant they "switch back" to being straight?
because they were NEVER straight to begin with..

God creates babies with ambiguous sexual organs, neither totally male or female..I doubt anyone can sucessfully argue that the babies CHOSE to be that way while developing in the womb..
so God Himself creates ambiguous physical sexual traits all the time..
but yet we are to believe that its impossible to have male sexual organs yet not have male hetrosexual brain chemistry?? God cant do that? wow..I didnt know you had the authority to tell God what He can and cant do..arent you special.

and..if some people can choose to be gay..why cant ALL people choose to be gay?
I honestly cant CHOOSE to be gay..its impossible..
why?? because im NOT...its simply not an option for me.
in the same way, gays cant choose to be gay..or choose to not be gay,
they have no choice..they were CREATED gay..
if you believe in God, you have no choice but to believe that God created them gay..
therefore, homosexuality can not be a sin..its impossible.

ok..now im done!

Scot

Nobody knows where homosexual orientation comes from. There have been studies of twins where one is gay and the other isn't. So is it genetic? Probably not. Does God make people gay? No, it's just part of this fallen world that we live in, that our original parents created. Just because somebody has something in their nature that is counter to what God says, doesn't mean it's OK. We are all born with fallen natures that we all must learn to battle on a daily basis. There are also stories of homosexuals in the Church who through the grace of Christ have become married and live happy heterosexual lives. To suggest that God isn't capable of transforming someone because they are born a certain way is just bad theology. I also think it's wrong that some parts of the Church have gone on crusades against homosexuality, when it is just one of many sins that we can all be forgiven for.

 

[xvart]

Does God make people gay? No,

And you know this for fact how?

It doesn't intoxicate you, you intoxicate you. You have to purposefully consume an amount to make yourself intoxicated.

And where do we draw the line here?

xvart.

 

[Clint]

No. They did not become straight through the grace of Christ. They are in denial of who they are, or have been brainwashed at those ex-gay camps. And that's really all they are: brainwashing camps. I imagine with enough religion, guilt, and shame, it's not hard to convince yourself that you like women. Especially with the miracle drug, Viagra. Those same people will be the biggest anti-gay right-wingers, and they validate themselves by fighting their former lifestyles and members of the community.

 

[JRFxtreme]

It raises the question of any psychological conditioning that may have taken place. Sort of a pseudo-Stockholm syndrome.

I can see someone considering parent & offspring incestuous relationships as something like that, however that still doesn't cover all the bases. What about sibling, cousin, and Aunt/Uncle-Niece/Nephew incestuous relationships? These don't seem like they could be caused by a pseudo-Stockholm syndrome (especially the first two).

Heres a short but true story. My parents knew a man that lived in South Florida. He ended up going to New York for college and while there met a woman and fell in love. They eventually moved back to Florida, got married and had a couple kids. Years later they discovered they were actually second-cousins but they loved each other and this didn't end their marriage.

Now imagine if the state would have stepped in and said "Whoops, you two are actually too closely related so we'll just go ahead and un-marry you".

Is it the right of relatives to marry each other or the right of us to deny them marriage? I could never imagine being in a relationship with a relative, but that doesn't mean everyone in this world feels the same way. Likewise I could never imagine being in a relationship with a man, but there are countless others where its quite the contrary.

 

[JB_OrchidGuy]

It doesn't intoxicate you, you intoxicate you. You have to purposefully consume an amount to make yourself intoxicated.

The same with pot. One glass of wine can intoxicate someone on an empty stomach. Maybe not you or I but a small woman could be. How about a Child?

 

[JB_OrchidGuy]

Nobody knows where homosexual orientation comes from. There have been studies of twins where one is gay and the other isn't. So is it genetic? Probably not. Does God make people gay? No, it's just part of this fallen world that we live in, that our original parents created. Just because somebody has something in their nature that is counter to what God says, doesn't mean it's OK. We are all born with fallen natures that we all must learn to battle on a daily basis. There are also stories of homosexuals in the Church who through the grace of Christ have become married and live happy heterosexual lives. To suggest that God isn't capable of transforming someone because they are born a certain way is just bad theology. I also think it's wrong that some parts of the Church have gone on crusades against homosexuality, when it is just one of many sins that we can all be forgiven for.

I believe that it was the grace of god that I met my future wife. I met her when my wife and I decided to swap partners one weekend. They came down from MN to meet us and swap spouses for the weekend. I have not looked back ever since. I have met the woman of my dreams and thank God every day for the opportunity to meet such a great woman.

People are born gay and can be swayed to the heterosexual side by the ever present reticule of people. There is such a bad stigma against being gay and if they buy into that they can put up the front of not being gay so they are not harassed by people like you.

My GF just brought up a good point. What about the part of the bible that teaches tolerance??

 

[obregon562]

Hey, just answer me one thing: what are gay married couples going to do to you? What harm can they do? Seriously, this isn't sarcastic at all. What will they do to you?

 

[Clint]

I thought you were an atheist, Josh?

You got me, Jeremy. I just know that's a sticky situation I wouldn't want to be in. I'd need years of therapy if that ever happened to me.

 

[JB_OrchidGuy]

Not a damn thing. Some people need to have some sort of control over others.

Nope Clint. If anything I was agnostic. Never an atheist.

 

[Clint]

My bad. Agnosticism: the religious insurance policy

 

[PlantAKiss]

I will say this ONE time. DO NOT PUT INSULTS INTO THIS DISCUSSION.

 

[JB_OrchidGuy]

Too late. Its already been done PAK. And not by me. I and I feel others have felt attacked in this thread already.

I have yet to find out when calling a kettle black is an insult. If its a duck its a duck.

 

[thbjr]

Well, after reading 8 pages, it's clear that battle lines have been drawn and sides chosen. So I don't expect to change any minds, but I would like to express my humble opinion. I do not believe anyone should be discriminated against based on race, ethnicity, religion, familial status, disability, or sexual preferance. I also think that there are instances of seperate and/but equal, and along those lines I fall into the camp of marriage is a union between 1 man and 1 woman and a civil union is the union between 2 men, 2 women or 2 concenting adults that are cohabititating. Both 'unions' should have equal rights with respect to discrimination under the law. So you ask why dicern a differance? Well, again IMHO there is a differance. Are men and womens bathrooms seperate yet equal? Are the left and right lanes of a 2 lane road seperate but equal (and with obvious reasons)? If two concenting adults, of any gender (strait or gay) want to co-habitate, there should be legal recognition of that decision, a civil union.
As for the other arguement that's crept into this thread, IMHO, even Charles Darwin's title to his book smacks of racism (and yes, I'm a creationist). Most of us only know of his book, Origin of Species, by the first half of its title. To me the 'or' just smacks of rasism and was written to justify the supieriority of certain (white) races when it was written in the 1840's. The books full name is

On
The Origin of Species
by Means of Natural Selection,
or
The Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life
First Edition

by Charles Darwin​

Now, before someone tries to label me racist, because I believe that under certain circumstances there is a place for seperate but equal, let me share a bit about my family. My wife of 10 years was born in Saigon. My son is Vietnamese American and Africian American. He has beautiful tan skin from his father and almond eyes from his mother. He is neither African or Vietnamese, he is American, but you just try not to treat him with equality, and you'll meet with a fathers rage. I protect him from the rasism he faces all the time with all the ferver a father can. He, IMHO is living proof of seperate and equal. He is seperate of any 'race' but an equal person in the 'human race'.
Well, that all. Just my thoughts and just my opinion... and not yours (so I don't expect anyone to agree with them ) ...beacuse they're mine.
What an intresting thread.....

 

[xvart]

Too late. Its already been done PAK. And not by me. I and I feel others have felt attacked in this thread already.

Everyone has been contacted that has needed "encouragement" to stay to the topic at hand. It's difficult to stay on top of it when posts pour in in huge waves, and people quote things, and so on and so forth.

Never forget, in this thread and any thread, anyone can always report abuse by clicking the "report this post" button. Although we may seem omnipotent, us moderators occasionally miss things.

xvart.

 

[Clint]

You know, you can change your settings so that a seven page topic becomes a two page topic. It's great!