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  • #41
The trouble with letting only "certain people" participate in plant rescues is that ONLY these "certain people" will end up going on plant rescues, and they most likely will keep all the plants for themselves. It's usually very clique-ish.

How do I know?

I used to belong to Wild Ones, and our chapter did many plant rescues. I was a fully paid member, and I was never invited. The "in" crowd was, however. The "in" crowd got themselves very nice native plant gardens, for free. Did they share these plants with other chapter members? Nope. Aprilh.
 
  • #42
April,
You make a very good point. However, all organizations are not the same and it is not fair to generalize. The last 'rescue' I did, I shipped 114 S. rubra ssp. gulfensis plants out across the country and when all was said and done I did not even have one of the plants left for me. I forgot to hold one back. Don't mistake this for complaining. I'd do it again in a heart beat.

Before I get bombarded with kind requests, I do have a Crestview rubra now.
 
  • #43
My opinion is that if you join an organization that saves plant to get free plants, you're just a collector that has found a cheap way to get plants. If this is what people are expecting from the NASC, then you've joined the wrong organization. This is not a find a site that's being destroyed, so grab as many plants as you can group. We are putting together a strict chain of command. We are setting rules up so that we can weed out the people that are looking for free plants. There will be no clique. Just trusted individuals with one mission.
 
  • #44
There actually are some organizations out there that encourage their members to totally strip sites by taking plant material home even if all you do is pot it up and pass it on. After the threatened and endangered species are removed and transferred to the appropriate parties by trained volunteers that have been thoroughly screened, that still generally leaves a considerable amount of plant material that may be native. I'm referring to waste not want not in this particular situation.

My particular Wild Ones Chapter actually wants its members to take home as much native vegetation as is humanly possible from target sites (specifically those slated to be excavated and turned into seas of asphalt or cookie cutter barefoot chemically dependent residential lawns) to keep and plant on their own properties or to distribute to friends, family, and neighbors for their properties.  They want everything from herbaceous perennials to woodies removed if at all humanly possible.

The issue for the local Chapter that April is referring to is that a long time ago a man with the best of intentions volunteered to organize plant "rescues" for the general membership. He was set up as the sole contact. Now mind you, these are actual plant rescues in the true sense of the word as all the threatened and endangered species will have already been removed and relocated to insure perpetuation of the species for future generations to enjoy... anyway, he went south so to speak.

He receives the faxes at his home and basically sits on them. He doesn't put forth the effort to organize anything any longer and half the time he doesn't even bother visiting a site himself.  What's really infuriating is when you spot a site with heavy equipment on it and ask him if he knew about it, he'll tell you that he received a fax after the permit was approved months ago and invite you to stop over any time and he'll give you copies. It's gotten to the point that the only people who have knowledge of which sites have building permits in place with secured consents are his personal friends and neighbors who stop in for other reasons.  He really should resign from the position and let somebody else take over but I suppose he likes the title even if he no longer does the work. These things happen from time to time and sooner or later somebody will question why it is that no plant "rescues" have been organized for about 3 years running now.

And yes, his neighbors and his little inner circle have some very nice native plant gardens. Sad but true and it happens all the time around here.

Now there is another local Wild Ones that is well organized and these issues do not exist. Their volunteers are like Brooks in that they go in and remove specific species and then redistribute to approved recipients. What's rather interesting is that most of these people who do the grunt labor of removing the plants, don't provide care for them. I can't say as I blame them.  After you remove about 100-200 of them in one marathon session you sure as heck don't want to look at so much as even one of them for another few years until it gets moved to a permanent location.

Given the invasion process is well underway as well as the current state of our watersheds, sitting on any native plant material is unconscionable. The roots of native plants are very deep with many species extending 20' or greater. That was no typo as I meant 20 feet. These species, regardless of how common they may be, are desperately needed in all of our landscapes if not for anything else but erosion control as well as the sake of attempting to restore some semblance of balance to our fragile ecosystems. Barring the above, we desperately need to focus on preserving diversity as most species are co-dependent for lack of a better term.

In addition to Wild Ones, I am also a member of a few other groups. Plants Of Concern comes to mind and they are geared to deal with endangered and threatened species almost exclusively however they provide care for any other native species that are present in the native plant community. They monitor existing communities of endangered and threatened species and make sure that exotic species are controlled, managed, and eradicated so as to insure the native species are not out competed. They want to make sure future generations don't view these species only in picture books. The INPS also has a similar program as does the North American Native Plant Society, Nature Serve, United Plant Savers, the Center For WildLife and Plant Ecology, The Wetlands Initiative, and The Lady Bird Johnson Wildflower Center and of course the North American Plant Collections Consortium. I am relatively sure The Nature Conservancy has something going on also.

I might as well add that my property is certified "Acres For WildLife" so any and all plant material used in my upland and lowland woodlands or wetlands is approved and sources disclosed and documented. The vast majority of what I have is purchased from State nurseries but I also purchase from NP sales and NP nurseries that maintain local genotype lines. Other than that, I get seed from my own property and from fellow Wild Ones Members with location and source data and I do just fine. I currently have no material growing on this property from any plant rescues although I actually help with NP plant rescues as well as a NP seed bank.  I do have several species that I purchased that will ultimately be used for restoration projects in the local area. We need to collectively hoard these species for our grandchildren. Nobody needs to field collect other than for the sake of pure and unadulterated greed and possessiveness in my humble opinion.  There is absolutely no reason to reduce one's self to the level of a field collector as it has been my experience that most CP people are comparable to most Native Plant people in that they all share. With so many sources out there that are legit, why do it.
 
  • #46
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]My opinion is that if you join an organization that saves plant to get free plants, you're just a collector that has found a cheap way to get plants. If this is what people are expecting from the NASC, then you've joined the wrong organization. This is not a find a site that's being destroyed, so grab as many plants as you can group. We are putting together a strict chain of command. We are setting rules up so that we can weed out the people that are looking for free plants. There will be no clique. Just trusted individuals with one mission. Ozzy


Ozzy,

1) From what I see, the disorganization, the lack of a business model or plan, etc., etc., etc…..tells me the NASC doesn't really exist at this time. I volunteered a while ago, and never heard anything back. And I'm really not interested in being, nor can I or anyone be, a member of something that doesn't exist.

2) I have been involved with prairie restoration and land conservation since around 1978 or 1980. I have been a volunteer at the Wolf Road Prairie restoration, the West Chicago Prairie restoration, and am now a volunteer involved in Prairie/Woodland/Wetland restoration and maintenance at a local State Park.

3) Up until the time I volunteered at the local SP, 3 years ago, I never received a free plant. Ever. At the local SP, if there are plants that have sprouted up in the wrong area in the nursery beds, volunteers are allowed to take these strays home, because if they were re-planted in the nursery beds, they would die because there currently isn’t a volunteer to take care of the nursery beds. I have taken 4 plants. They are: Tradescantia Ohiensis, Aster Laevis, Sorgastrum Nutans, and Schizachyrium Scoparium. These are all very common prairie plants.

4) I have been on many, many, many, many state and federally permitted, legal rescues (20+), including, yes, the S. Purpurea Purpurea, and I didn’t take anything. Not a twig. Didn’t give a rat’s about Sarracennias back then, outside of their being one of the indicator plants for high quality wetland. I have already purchased, from reputable sources, the native plants I wanted, OR dug them from friend’s land before the land was logged. I don’t go for common prairie or woodland plants(though I have lots of those, too). I go for the stuff that’s endangered, for the purpose of propagation and hopefully restoration to its native habitat, if any can be found. Until that time, they sit contentedly blooming safe and sound, making seed and new little plants that I SHARE. And not with just a select inner circle, either. I put plants and seed up for SASE and trade on Garden Web every year. Not too much in the way of CP seed or plants up for trade there, I’ve noticed.

I really don’t need to join an organization to get free plants. And I’m happy and content with the amount of CP I have now, most of which were given to me free by really, really nice people. I joined Terra AFTER I BOUGHT plants. I joined Terra to find out how to take proper care of them, not score freebies.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ] We are setting rules up so that we can weed out the people that are looking for free plants. There will be no clique. Just trusted individuals with one mission.

Who will administer these rules? Who is "we"? A board? Elected or appointed? Trusted individuals chosen by whom? The same people who chose Casper?

I don’t appreciate having my motives, or anyone else’s, impugned.

Have a nice day, Ozzy, and best of luck with the NASC.

April H.
 
  • #47
April, I replied to what you said. You made a comment about people using the wild ones (I think) to keep all the plants for themselves and their friends. I was refering to people like them, I never made any reference to you. You lumped yourself into that catogory, not me.
You said the NASC don't exist. You're almost right. We are not up and running yet, and we don't have the ablity to save many plants, YET. There was some people that wanted to put the horse before the cart and start going out and save plants, get our name out before we really even existed. The first thing we need to do is to get non-profit status. Then we can move forward. If you don't want to be part of this there is nobody forcing you to. We don't need somebody hanging around telling us what we're doing wrong when she don't have a clue to what's going on behind the scene.
The board members were elected. I don't know who choose Casper, that was before I was a real part of the NASC. Again this is another thing where you're running your mouth but don't know any facts. Casper had or has a teminal disease. We don't know if he's even alive. He was an honest man, that had no need to steal any money. You have no right to drag his name through the mud, when you don't have a clue who he is or his physical condition.
 
  • #48
Let's all just stop please as we will all begin reading into what is typed and without the body language and the inflections in our voices to go along with the typed words, it is difficult to discern how to interpret posts such as these. Please, let's not read more into what is typed than what may be there.

In my heart I do not believe that Casper is all that he led others to believe he was and I would have to agree with the comments Bugweed made about him previously. I believe we all read those comments. April's comments were benign by comparison.
 
  • #49
Terminally ill people can be thieving jerks, too.  Having a terminal illness does not automatically confer sainthood on the person bearing the illness, or excuse the sufferor from doing what is right.

If the person in question had no need to steal money..then why did it disappear?  Where is it? What action was taken against this person or their estate?  If none, why not?  Mail fraud is mail fraud is mail fraud.....and the PO doesn't like it much. They'd prosecute it for free.    

Last I heard, Casper had some issues with hurricanes in FL.  Nothing about a terminal illness.  

Did this person actually pass away?  Is there a death certificate?  You must understand, that if you're going to start an organisation, every single thing you do and say, and every action you take or lack thereof must be completely verifiable and transparent.  Not only for future memberships and reputation's sake, but for auditing purposes.  The IRS is a much bigger nasty term for a lady than I am.

And I'll repeat...I volunteered to do grunt work for the NASC, whatever asked...but no one could be bothered to get back to me, or quite a few of the other people who volunteered, also.  

I don't have a clue as to what's going on behind the scenes because the powers-that-think-they-are keep what's going on behind the scenes pretty close to their chests.  And they're not very forth-coming, are they?  Aprilh
 
  • #50
Well, let's see...the organization The Wild Ones has been in existence since 1979.  That's what...25 years?  So I'd say a comparison between NASC, who is in the very early stages of forming, and an organization that's had 25 years to get its act together is just a TAD unfair.  Wouldn't you agree?

And as far as who is on the board and who is "running" NASC...we had an **open call for nominations for positions** and pretty much got ZIPPO.  NADA.  NE RIEN.  A few people got nominated and most declined.  No one wanted the responsibility.  Everyone wants to grow the plants because that's fun!...nobody wanted to be in a position of responsibility because that is WORK.  We've been through two pro-tem Presidents.  So the folks that you see on the board are the FEW...the VERY few...who were willing to at least TRY and stick with it while dealing with jobs, kids, family issues, illnesses and tragedies.

I'd say TRYING is better than doing nothing at all.  Anyone who did not step up to the plate and offer to take a leadership position has no right to criticize those who did.  Maybe there ARE people "out there" who could do it better...but where were they?  Where ARE they??  This little rag-tag group is HERE and working under difficult circumstances (scattered across the country and having to deal with our "real lives").

Are we disorganized?  Yes.  Have there been mistakes made?  Yes.  Will there be more?  Absolutely YES!

Not one of us who is on the board has any experience creating, organizing and running a not-for-profit organization.  So what do you expect?  No one is a business expert.  No one is a legal expert.  No one is a conservation expert.  If any of you out there ARE experts in these areas...we could sure use your help!  But no, we're just a handful of people...a cop, a graphic artist, a phone man, an electrician and a (Schloaty...I don't know what you are!  lol), who think this is a worthy cause and want to do something to achieve it even if it takes 25 years.  Do you expect everything to be up and running efficiently like The Wild Ones in a year?  Two?  Ask Barry Rice how long it took the ICPS to get formed and running smoothly.

I couldn't BEGIN to throw stones at a group of people who have sunk their hearts and a lot of work into this project however slow and disorganized it may appear.  Anyone who thinks they can do better....DO IT!!  Who cares who does it as long as it gets done!

This is not about "who" or "how" or "how long"...its about STARTING something...an idea...a movement...towards a worthwhile goal.  Something needs to START and we are trying to do that.

No one is required to be involved.  If you don't like it, don't agree with it, think it could be done better...then be about it!  Go do it!  Until then...negative comments achieve nothing.

Its possible this organization will fail.  But if it does, at least *I* can say I tried!

Starting an organization like this is difficult...its slow.  We must take the baby steps before we can walk and running is a long ways off.  And I can't believe anyone could dare to compare NASC to other long-established organizations.  Why don't you write to some of them and ask how long it took before they had EVERYTHING in place and were running smoothly?

There are a LOT of people waiting PATIENTLY for an assignment. We have lots of heart and willing folks "out there" just waiting for the word. And when NASC gets to the point where we can start making assignments for our willing workers, then we will. Until then...people must wait and I'm sorry if our slow pace doesn't fit someone else's schedule or expectations. This isn't "Instant Organization"...add a cup of milk, heat in microwave and...TA DA...you have a well-oiled machine of an organization. That's a fairy tale.

And by the way...I find it appalling to see all the judgements flying about regarding a man that most of you "accusers" didn't know from Adam.  How can you judge a person you had NO interaction with whatsoever?  To many of you, the name "Casper" is nothing but that...a name.  To me, he was a friend whom I talked to on the phone, online, via PM and email.  Who the H are you to judge a total stranger??  None of us know what happened to Casper and the money although we've tried to find out....but between the two...I have more concern for Casper than the money.  Money is replaceable...human beings are not.
 
  • #51
This is painting with a very broad brush stroke however tension appears to be high as are frustrations and disappointments-
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Everyone wants to grow the plants because that's fun!...
 
  • #52
OK...pardon the literary generalization. Not EVERYONE wanted to grow plants, but we sure had a heck of lot more volunteers to grow plants than to take on the Presidency and other Board/Committee positions. In fact, NO ONE wanted the Presidency.
 
  • #53
[b said:
Quote[/b] (aprilh @ June 20 2005,3:24)]I don’t appreciate having my motives, or anyone else’s, impugned.
Thats how I felt when the first thing people did was accuse me of trying to poach.

And also, I posted in the volunteer thread and said that I would be happy to do any after school work and no one pm'ed me either. Now, I will give you the benifit of the doubt here and understand that you guys have very busy schedules and not enough time to pm every single person who posted there but my problem is this:
The first thing people posted after I made that post was what I thought an attempt to tell me I couldn't do it because I was too young. I happen to be good friends with this person so I dont think it is personal, but I feel like you have alot of young members here and most of us are not as busy as you, unlike you we dont have a busy schedule and kids to deal with, so alot of us I am sure would be ready and willing to help. but we can't because the rules might classify us as too young. We are all capable of helping alot with this, why dont you at least let us try?
 
  • #54
There is a place for the younger members for sure but we need to get more organized and flesh out what we want to accomplish and how that will be done before we start giving anyone "official" assignments. We have had people working on various things in the past but that is kind of on hold for now.
 
  • #55
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]To me, he was a friend whom I talked to on the phone, online, via PM and email.

Some friend. Heard from him lately?

Let me get this straight....you're angry because I
called into question the character of someone who disappeared with funds from the organisation that you claim to care so deeply about? And that nothing had been done about it? Please.

Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa. Shoot me for pointing out the obvious. Give me a minute, I'll go get the hair shirt out of storage.

I wasn't comparing the NASC to anything, actually. I was more reacting to Ozzy's "we have a board and we will decide who's trustworthy and we will decide who gets plants" thing. Whatever. That's fine...y'all can do what you want. Nothing against Ozzy. You apparently have the policy already set in stone.

I was also aggravated that Kirk's integrity was called into question immediately. Who's to say who's going to poach? Or not?

I felt compelled to comment that choosing someone who's trustworthy is apparently a lot harder than some of you thought. I also felt compelled to comment that the NASC as it sits right now, is disorganised, and doesn't really exist. It's a new organisation, and some disorganisation is to be expected in any new organisation. That's all. I wasn't comparing it to any other organisation.

I won't mention names, but I have been in similar organisations that were just as disorganised, and have been around a lot longer. They are that way because of the crony-ism, politic-playing, corruption and greed of some of the officers. Hope it doesn't happen to the NASC. That would indeed be a shame.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]There are a LOT of people waiting PATIENTLY for an assignment. We have lots of heart and willing folks "out there" just waiting for the word. And when NASC gets to the point where we can start making assignments for our willing workers, then we will.

This is funny. You don't "assign" volunteers....you take the time to find out their interests, then put them to work where their strengths and interests lay. You know, actually pretend you care about them. Otherwise, you lose volunteers fast.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ] A few people got nominated and most declined. No one wanted the responsibility.

Maybe the nominees just weren't interested? Maybe they knew they didn't have the skills required to do the job? I'm sure some of them didn't want any extra responsibility, too.

Why would someone who's strengths are in the administrative realm volunteer for a board position?

Good luck with the NASC.
 
  • #56
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Let me get this straight....you're angry because I
called into question the character of someone who disappeared with funds from the organisation that you claim to care so deeply about?  And that nothing had been done about it? Please.

I'm not happy about the situation but I still care more about Casper's well-being than the money.  It's not like a million dollars disappeared.  Yes, it was a nice chunk of change and no, no one is very thrilled about its status in limbo, but I don't see it as an issue to get bogged down over.  It happened.  No one planned it or wanted it to happen.  Can't turn back the hands of time and I'm not gonna sit around and cry for a year over it.  Get over it and move forward.  We have a lot more to worry about than one member and some money who are out contact.

I will consider Casper a friend until facts prove otherwise. I'm sorry...that's just how I am.   Right now, no one knows what happened and who am I to sit in judgement of the situation without all the facts.  I'm not a judgemental person and I don't "call into question the character" of someone until I know all the facts regarding a particular situation.  And how do you know "nothing has been done about it"??

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]This is funny.  You don't "assign" volunteers....you take the time to find out their interests, then put them to work where their strengths and interests lay. You know, actually pretend you care about them.  Otherwise, you lose volunteers fast.

Maybe you missed the pinned topic at the top of the forum where we ask the members to post their interests and strengths so we have it to refer to when we get to the point of needing help on various assignments.  That topic has been there since the creation of this forum.  People do post to it from time to time and I think it will be a great reference tool when we are ready for it.  And when we have a project that needs workers, we will refer to that topic, contact the members who posted their interests to see if they are willing to take on an assignment.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Maybe they knew they didn't have the skills required to do the job?

NONE of us have the skills required for the job. Did you miss that part of my post where I said we are all average Joes and Josephines trying to take on a monumental task?  That's why its taking so long for us to figure it out and get our feet under us.  The point is, we are TRYING because we think its a good idea and would like to see it happen.  I would LOVE it if we had someone who had experience in setting up and running a non profit...but we didn't and don't.  At least not that I know of.  We haven't gotten any emails or PMs from anyone informing us that they have these skills and want to take over a leadership position like the Presidency.

So...we will continue to do our best.  I still believe that doing SOMETHING is better than sitting around saying "Tsk tsk...so sad that the plants are being torn out of their habitat."  And I'm sorry if our best isn't good enough for some people.  No one HAS to be involved in this long-term project.  I'm sure some people would be better suited to working with other, well-established organizations that don't have the start-up issues we do.  Like I said...go for it!  If anyone can do better, I invite and encourage you to go do it!  Doesn't matter who accomplishes it as long as it gets done.
 
  • #57
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I'm not happy about the situation but I still care more about Casper's well-being than the money.  It's not like a million dollars disappeared.  Yes, it was a nice chunk of change and no, no one is very thrilled about its status in limbo, but I don't see it as an issue to get bogged down over.  It happened.  No one planned it or wanted it to happen.  Can't turn back the hands of time and I'm not gonna sit around and cry for a year over it.  Get over it and move forward.  We have a lot more to worry about than one member and some money who are out contact.

I understand your worry about Casper, since he's your alleged "friend"...BUT...I'm not the only one asking these questions.  They need to be asked, and, more importantly, they need to be answered definatively. In order for your organisation to be trusted and successful, everything about it is going to have to be 100% transparent. To the membership and the IRS.  Every word said during board meetings, open accounting books, etc.  I work for a 501-3C (501-C3?) non-profit.  

I'm still trying to figure out WHY any of you would defend someone who appears to have stolen from you. Very, very bizarre, IMO.  If Casper suddenly ponies up the money, I guess you guys will think he's a hero.  

No, a million dollars did not disappear...just ALL the proceeds from your first auction, am I correct?  How much are those very pretty colour brochures going to cost to print up?

Theft is theft. Period. There is NO excuse for it. Death, dying, hurricane rescue, whatever. Letting someone off the hook for taking money from the NASC smells bad. Covering for someone who absconds with money smells bad.  It smells really bad to me and I am not a member. It is something that would make me avoid membership. You really, really, REALLY want to avoid bad smells, especially in the realm of non-profits.  If you're a board member, PAK...your ultimate loyalty MUST be to the NASC. Period. You don't want to make people think the better of being a member. If action is being taken, the board needs to spell out, to every single person involved in that auction, what action is being taken.  Secrets are for 5 year olds.  

If the dang money was a long term loan to Casper...why not just come out and say it?  If he's ill or dead, I'm sure people would understand.  

As an organisation, you absolutely CAN NOT afford to be so laissez-faire about financial malfaesance, or the financial aspects involving NASC monies on the part of any officer, volunteer, or contractor.  *You* are asking for a lawsuit, *you* are asking for an audit.  Especially since the money was collected to benefit a "charity"...the NASC.  Is Casper a non-profit?  

The NASC has to be much more serious and grow UP about it's finances, among other things....otherwise, it will not be taken seriously.  It will attract no serious volunteers, or monies. And it will face continual and crippling audits by the IRS. This incident is a real good starting point, by letting others know that this sort of behaviour will not be tolerated, and will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.  aprilh
 
  • #58
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]How much are those very pretty colour brochures going to cost to print up?

They are free. I print them up at no cost to anyone at my office.
 
  • #59
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]They are free.  I print them up at no cost to anyone at my office

Nice avoid, Pak. You answered NONE of my questions. Board members are accountable to the membership, or anyone else who asks.  Period. Would the brochures still be free if you had to print up 1 thousand or 5 thousand or 10 thousand of them? Colour printing is EXPENSIVE.  Especially when done on office colour printers.  I'm assuming you don't work at a 4-colour offset lithography print shop.  If you do, I sincerely apologise, and am happy you can get the "pressman's discount" on them.  Rock on.  

Apparently, the board has only it's own best interests and "friendships" at heart, which should be a big tip off to anyone wanting to volunteer/work for/be involved with the NASC.  It's not about saving the plants...it's about feelings! Sunshine and rainbows for everyone! Aprilh
 
  • #60
April, its no "avoid." I'm not going to argue with you. You have your opinions and I have mine. If you wish to continue to publicly bash me and NASC, feel free. Go for it! I really don't care. I tendered my resignation to the Board last week. It is up to them to vote for acceptance or not. I really don't understand your vehemence on the subject considering the fact that you say you aren't a member of NASC. Most people who don't support the project simply don't bother with this forum or its issues. But go right ahead telling us, or me, what we SHOULD be doing and what we HAVEN'T done and any other negative, discouraging comment you can think of. Although if you really care, I think you'd be better off contacting our President or Vice President and raising your "concerns" with him/her directly rather than continuing your diatribe here.

We have a LOT of people who do support this and are willing to have patience through the growing pains. And with their support, with me or without me, I'm hoping this will succeed. But it IS a long-term project and not something that is going to happen overnight. I have the patience for it. Some people don't. Ca va!

I grew up in the printing business. My father owned his own print shop and I practically lived there as a child. I worked for 12 years in advertising. I'm an in-house graphic artist working directly with company clients, print houses, magazines, newspapers and other advertising media vendors creating a wide variety marketing materials. So yeah...I know a LITTLE bit about the process and costs of 4-color printing.

Have a nice day.
smile.gif
 
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