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Which vfts do you grow?

Joined
Jan 29, 2003
Messages
840
Location
Palm Springs, CA
Hehe, no prob at all, but BobZ truly deserves the credit for that site. I don't know what i'd do without it sometimes.
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Joined
Sep 25, 2001
Messages
2,005
Location
United Kingdom
Typical
Red Dragon
Green Dragon
Slack's Giant
South West Giant
Big Mouth
Fine Tooth x Red
Blood Red
Marston Red Clone
Royal Red
Dentata
Sharks' Tooth Dentate
Dingley Clone
Pink Venus
Red Piranha
Clayton's Volcanic Red
Vigorous Clone
 
Joined
May 24, 2003
Messages
57
Wow, how do you guys house all of them? Do most of you have green houses or is your climate just right for v.f.t.s? I am getting hooked, but I don't think I have room for that many. So far, I ordered 2-Typicals, 2-Green Dragons, 2-Dentates, and 2- Red Dragons. That should get me started. Should I worry about low humidity living in Nebraska or should I make a green house? Thanks, I sure would like to see some pics of all these plants you people have.
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Joined
Mar 30, 2003
Messages
529
Location
U.S.A.
I want to eventaullly expand my collection but im going to be ordering a green dragon off of PFT
 
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Flytrap2888

Guest
What does a Jaws look like? I only have a typical, dente and green dragon but i've heard fo the other kinds of plants. So if you can post any pics that would be nice.
 
Joined
Jan 29, 2003
Messages
840
Location
Palm Springs, CA
Slight update to my list for anyone that's still reading this:
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Typical
'Dente'
'Akai Ryu'
"Green Dragon"
"Dingley Giant"
"Pink Venus"
'Jaws'
'Akai Ryu' x 'Jaws'
'Jaws' x 'Akai Ryu'
"Fine Tooth x Red"
"Creeping Death"
'Royal Red'
"Long Red Fingers"
'Yellow'
"Big Mouth"
"Red Rosetted"
"Heterodoxa"
"Giant Traps"
 
Joined
Dec 8, 2001
Messages
5,290
Location
Oswego, New York, U.S.A.
If everyone makes up a name for a VFT that looks different than their other VFT's, how many names do you think we can come up with?

TYPICAL? What does this mean? That one VFT can represent ALL the variation to be found in the genus? People, let me tell you I have VFT's with long teeth, short teeth, double teeth, no teeth, dentate teeth, saw teeth, red teeth, thin teeth close together teeth. I have short white teeth, short red teeth, long white teeth far apart, straight teeth and teeth that reflex slightly.. I have 2 trigger hair, three trigger hairs, four trigger hairs. All red, all green, green with red traps, green with red traps and a green band, red with a green band, green with red outer traps, blood red inner traps small, blood red inner traps large, large traps, large erect pink inside, large erect red inside, small erect, small traps, cup traps, clumping varieties, thin petioles, wide petioles, erect, prostrate.

Typical does not exist!! The more you look at them the more you will see they are individuals expressing a range of phenotypic diversity.

Since there is no central photographic reference for these plants to link the names to, it is rather silly to try to intelligently discuss what any one has vs. what anyone else has.

Frankly, I am so frustrated that I am considering trying to publish a photographic essay in hard copy containing descriptions of the most widely circulated varients, and actually get some registered as cultivars with the ICPS.

"Common Usage" names are particularly frustrating, because material may become confused through error and subsequent distribution. A decade down the road, everyone has a plant by the same name, but they all seem different. Which of them has the original plant, and *how can you know this?*

Nurseries develop plants, but they too come and go. Who is Clayton of "Claytons RED" Has anyone spoken lately with Dingley?
Does anyone realize thet Big Jaws isn't just a plant with large traps, but a specific varietial developed in Australia by a nursery there, AND how many people have distributed large trap VFT's as "Big Jaws"? If you want to trade for one you take your chances that you will get the right one. Perhaps ignorance really is bliss, in this case and many others as it now stands, you can never know!

Folks, we have to register these plants after publishing a photo and a description. Once this is done we can begin to discuss the merit of this one or that one, but until this is accomplished none of us can really know what the others are talking about.

I hope this gives some food for thought. Just think, you could register the cup trap varient yourself....call it "Catcher's Mitt" or even "Pot Holder" Name it after yourself even, become immortal...another Linneaus of the CP world! Go for it!
 
G

Guest

Guest
Ok Tamlin.. you’ve got a good point (as always) so this is what I was told my VFT's were when I bought or traded for them..
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My VFT’s are (allegedly):
Green Dragon
Red Dragon
Dente
Fine Tooth X Red
Giant Red
 
Joined
Jan 29, 2003
Messages
840
Location
Palm Springs, CA
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tamlin Dawnstar @ May 28 2003,1:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If everyone makes up a name for a VFT that looks different than their other VFT's, how many names do you think we can come up with?

TYPICAL?  What does this mean?  That one VFT can represent ALL the variation to be found in the genus?  People, let me tell you I have VFT's with long teeth, short teeth, double teeth, no teeth, dentate teeth, saw teeth, red teeth, thin teeth close together teeth.  I have short white teeth, short red teeth, long white teeth far apart, straight teeth and teeth that reflex slightly..  I have 2 trigger hair, three trigger hairs, four trigger hairs.  All red, all green, green with red traps, green with red traps and a green band, red with a green band, green with red outer traps, blood red inner traps small, blood red inner traps large, large traps, large erect pink inside, large erect red inside, small erect, small traps, cup traps, clumping varieties, thin petioles, wide petioles, erect, prostrate.

Typical does not exist!!  The more you look at them the more you will see they are individuals expressing a range of phenotypic diversity.

Since there is no central photographic reference for these plants to link the names to, it is rather silly to try to intelligently discuss what any one has vs. what anyone else has.

Frankly, I am so frustrated that I am considering trying to publish a photographic essay in hard copy containing descriptions of the most widely circulated varients, and actually get some registered as cultivars with the ICPS.

"Common Usage" names are particularly frustrating, because material may become confused through error and subsequent distribution.  A decade down the road, everyone has a plant by the same name, but they all seem different.  Which of them has the original plant, and *how can you know this?*

Nurseries develop plants, but they too come and go.  Who is Clayton of "Claytons RED"  Has anyone spoken lately with Dingley?
Does anyone realize thet Big Jaws isn't just a plant with large traps, but a specific varietial developed in Australia by a nursery there, AND how many people have distributed large trap VFT's as "Big Jaws"?  If you want to trade for one you take your chances that you will get the right one.  Perhaps ignorance really is bliss, in this case and many others as it now stands, you can never know!  

Folks, we have to register these plants after publishing a photo and a description.  Once this is done we can begin to discuss the merit of this one or that one, but until this is accomplished none of us can really know what the others are talking about.

I hope this gives some food for thought.  Just think, you could register the cup trap varient yourself....call it "Catcher's Mitt" or even "Pot Holder"  Name it after yourself even, become immortal...another Linneaus of the CP world! Go for it![/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Tamlin,
I completely understand where you are coming from. It has completely gotten out of hand, especially in the short time i've been here. In the past few months i've seen well over 30 or 40 different "varietal" would be names. A lot of them are just another persons nick name for the plant, or something that the specific culture of the plant was intended to do: fast, vigorous, etc., these are all names given to plants so that a nursery could know how they grow. It truly is silly that they have leaked out of that behind the curtain world.
The thing is, how would one even begin to discuss a plant, not having a digital camera or scanner, with out having some sort of basis to go on? BobZ's photo site has a lot of similar pictures grouped under some of these names in a hopes to help distinguish the difference, and create a slight order out of this chaos.
We need to start somewhere. If someone says that they have one of these would be cultivars, it usually starts up a discussion about it, most people still have no idea what more than half of these are supposed to look like. But people talk, and discuss, someone searches and finds a little info on it, another finds an e-mail address of the person who apparently came up with it, the person sends a picture, or a plant...then from there, you can learn the truth from it. Compare it side by side in constant conditions with the others and note if there truly is a difference between them, or find out they are all the same a few years down the line when environmental differences would subside as the plants grew to fit into the newer habitat and all it has to offer.
You are completely right though, someone has to do something. And some people are working on it, trust me.
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The hardest part to all of this though seems to be from keeping new rumors started. Like this one for instance, this was listed on another site, someone heard from someone, apparently, that their friend either had or knew someone that has a blue Dionaea muscipula. I don't doubt that it could happen, but don't you think that would have been a little bit of a bigger deal? I'm not really sure if a VFT of that shade could naturally come about with out something sever changing it drastically.
We have to go with what we've got so far, and try to stop any of the newer ones before they confuse it any more. I do agree there should a picture and a description somewhere at least before a person ships something out with a new name. Heck, I don't really care for my last name, but I haven't just started calling myself something else because I got a tan.
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Joined
Dec 2, 2002
Messages
1,231
Location
Arcata, California
Great discussion Tamlin and Vertigo. To generate this discussion is precisely why I posted the topic in April. I agree that the VFT naming is much out of control. The ICPS Database lists 12 cultivars, of which only 5 have received official registration (Akai Ryu, Dentate Traps, Jaws, Red Piranha, Sawtooth), and 1 patented, but not registered (Royal Red). For the other 6, the description is either insufficient for registration (Big Mouth, Clumping Cultivar, Fused Tooth, Red Rosetted) or equivalent to an already registered cultivar (Dentate and Dente = Dentate Traps).

To facilitate comparison of these plants, whenever I find a photo of a named VFT, registered or not, I post it on my list at
http://www.humboldt.edu/~rrz7001/Dionaea.html
 

FlytrapGurl

apple rings.. what more can i say?
Joined
Feb 25, 2002
Messages
2,619
Location
T-ville, Florida
Whoa... I just saw this topic! It's obviously been here for a while!!! Well, anyhowees, here's my tiny, mediocre, humble little list:

Three green dragon VFTs(in the same pot)
One common VFT

Not much, huh? ME WANT MORE!!!

Anyhowees, I've noticed that in the past week or so, the three green dragons that are in the same pot are getting huge traps! Well, huge compared to what they normally look like... the current traps are almost an inch long! The cause of this dramatic increase in trap size is probably due to the fact that I have been giving them a whole lot more sunlight lately
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Joined
Sep 19, 2002
Messages
1,473
Location
Western MI USA
*wimper*
Ooohhhhh, you guys make me so jelious.  How are you getting all those VFT varients.  I would do just about anything to get my hands on some. Do you know places that sell them? *big puppydog eyes*  I've been trying to get all the ones I can, but most are eather to easy to get to be on my priority list or I've never seen them for sale.  At the moment I have

1 Typical that is of 'Typica' growth (rossets all year and is very small with peach-orange traps)
1 Typical with big traps, short leaves, rossets all year and has bright magenta mouths.
1 Typical with 6 inch long summer leaves with big traps and 2 inch long winter leaves and tiney traps, very poor coloring.
1 Red Dragon (only rare type I have)

Could have but don't feel large need for: Green Dragon, Denta.

Want: ANYTHING ELSE, PLEASE!

Edit: I don't know if it would be of help, but a couple months back I went through a few hundred VFT photoes and names and sorted them out according to "general" shared traits. I just didn't think it was proper to publish the results having not actaully owned many. If you like, I could give you a link to my incompleat website on the subject.
 
Joined
Apr 9, 2003
Messages
10
Tamlin and Vertigo,

Thank you!

I tried to vent a similar frustration about VFT cultivars a while ago. I think that sometimes forms get introduced into cultivation as a publicity stunt. I mean, let's all be realistic here--"Clayton's Volcanic Red" sounds pretty cool, but I'm unclear on how much it differs from other red forms. I have a Dingley's Giant, and I suppose the most distinctive thing about it is how quickly it grows... but even that pales in comparison to the Green Dragon. And Pink Venus, while cool in its burgundy color, is a very weak, slow growing plant without a huge amount of sun--weaker than the red dragon, in my experience.

So look, seriously people, these cultivars, aside from their interesting names, a lot of the time aren't all that cool or distinctive (well any cp is cool, but you know...). There are some forms that are staples--I mean, the green dragon, red dragon, and so forth, that are obviously interesting plants. But Tamlin hit the nail *sqarely* on the head--these plants exhibit huge phenotypic variation in nature.

At a basic level, if your cultivar inculdes the name "giant," you *will* sell plants. How many people have you seen make posts that say, "I'm looking for whatever Giant flytrap form." And the traps on my Dingly often pale in comparison to  my "typical." I've found that even some of the *registered* cultivars are doubtful in their distinctiveness.

I think a main challenge in sorting this cultivar mess out is finding people who agree on what is distinctive and what is not. I mean, does distictive mean the huge difference between a "typical" (sorry for using the term Tamlin, but just for example purposes
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) and a red dragon? Or does it mean how deep a shade of red your inner trap is?

Jake
 
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