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Where does everyone stand in regards to...

Okay, the evolution topic has turned into something too rarified and too frenetic for my taste. Especially since it's, after all, only academic.

So... let's discuss something with real repercussions: the formation of antibiotic-resistant bacteria through improper, inadequate, and even proper usage of antibiotics and other antimicrobials. To my knowledge, this is not a point of debate any more (much like global warming), but rather an established fact. What that means is that everyone should either consider it an unimportant threat, be very concerned about it, or have a "not in my lifetime" stance.

Where do you stand?
 
I say use anti-biotics sparingly! I let my body fight off such infections like Influenza. I haven't gotten a shot in my life and I most certainly don't intend to do so, the more your body is able to produce memory cells to defend against the invaders the better off you are.
 
I like having an immune system. No germ fear here. I take no precautions against getting sick and I don't remember the last time I was.
 
i agree its going to be an extreamly serious problem within the next 10-15 years. it is already a serious problem. penicilin used to kill every bug out there, now its no perscribed to often cause it doesnt work very well anymore. i cant say i have never had a shot. i have had steroid and allergy shots for my asthma. i generally get flu shots do to my asthma which can seriously compromise things. had a tetnus shot a couple months ago after i sliced open my hand. but i dont go to the doc unless the problem is serious and definatly dont demand meds if the problem turns out to be a virus.

lots of rest, lots of fluids. if your worried about the flu, get a flu shot they do work.
 
I agree with basically everything said before except for the shot thing (I was little and i couldn't decide..) and I WOULD get shots because that has no bad effects. They don't give you things to kill the pathogen (unless it's an antibodies shot... and even then it doesn't make the pathogen stronger... at least not to my knowledge). Most shots give you weakened pathogens so that you can make your own memory cells to fight them off when you come in contact with healthy pathogens.
and I do remember last time I was sick... a year ago I had a flu for about 4 days
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Well, flu shot's are different -no?-. To the best of my knowledge, that's ok as well as other vaccinations which simply contain a non-virulent strain of a virus. That functions to strengthen your immune system because of memory cells yadda yadda... One of the major problems is definitly over use, but there is also misuse. For example, there's the classic case of someone getting prescribed some antibiotics and they stop taking them as soon as they feel better which is BAD because then you allow ones with some resistance to that particular antibiotic to live and thrive -no competition with all of those other bacteria that just got wiped out-. If we look at this trend, we soon see AB (AntiBiotic was getting too long for me :p) resitance turning to immunity, and that immunity can transfer to other bacteria from there. There was a news article about something like this that I'll have to dig up and see if it says anything useful, or atleast to brush up. A lot of the blame isn't to be put on doc's though, there've been cases where groundwater has gotten contaminated with ABs from farms that use them for their animals- so not only did people ingest them from eating the meat products, but from drinking water as well
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... So, I definitly agree with the posters above, if you can, just take the brunt of it, get your rest and let thigns run its course- don't get me wrong though, if "running its course" could kill you, then please, by all means, take the ABs.
 
I didn't mean I don't get ANY shots, just don't believe in Flu shots. I think they are a waste of money, let your body fend for itself, its perfectly capable of defending itself if you follow through with practical hygeine and stay away from those that are ill!
 
Nep G, kinda hard to do if yah have kids. you would have to home school, not allow the kids to go to Sunday school and all that. like i said i get flu shots do to my asthma. some of the strains of influenza flying around can easily turn into pneumonia for ppl like me whos lungs are already comprimised. for the average healthy not getting a flu shot MAY just mean missing a couple days of work, no biggy. and yes i realize flu shots only protect against a handful of the some of the projected worst strains of the THOUSANDS out there.
 
Okay, let me clarify that vaccinations (against viral diseases) are not the problem (contributing to superstrain selection), or the issue. Most of them have almost no disadvantage and a lot of advantages, which is why many of them are required by law in the USA.

What i'm referring to are bacterial strains. As has been mentioned, taking antibiotics when a person has a viral infection is pointless, and one of the forms of abuse of antibiotics that i was referring to in the original post.

Unfortunately there are people who demand antibiotics from the doctor when they have a viral disease e.g. a cold, flu, etc, or take some remaining antibiotics that they never finished up before. These all contribute to the selection of bacterial strains that are immune to the antibiotic in question.

Flu shots in mild flu years are a life saver for the many people who have a particular susceptibility. That includes the elderly and those with respiratory diseases (asthma). Most epidemiologists agree that we are about due for another virulent flu pandemic like has happened several times in the past. When a flu like that is going around (typically killing thousands), anyone would be foolish not to get a vaccination, assuming the right strain is included in the vaccine.

But the issue of discussion is bacterial superstrains. One of the problems is that all our antibiotics are based on four or five (last time i heard an authority speak on this) biological mechanisms. That's not a lot of magic bullets to be dodged for an organism that reproduces as fast as a bacterium.
 
  • #10
and it's not just bacteria that are becoming resistant to things to kill them, it's pests becoming immune to insecticides and poisons, etc.
 
  • #11
Evolution has no repurcusions? Man and i thought apes turning into humans was a big deal. lol
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  • #12
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Amateur_Expert @ Jan. 22 2005,10:43)]Evolution has no repurcusions? Man and i thought apes turning into humans was a big deal. lol
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Well yeah, depending on what is important...

Discussing it doesn't: Believing or disbelieving in evolution won't affect the reality, whatever that may be. However, understanding how superstrains develop and an awareness of their presence does have a real effect on our future.

Another way of looking at it is that the application of antibiotic-imposed selection and mutation (~evolution) to bacteria is what counts, not whether or not there really was a missing link.
 
  • #13
[b said:
Quote[/b] (D muscipula @ Jan. 23 2005,4:26)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Amateur_Expert @ Jan. 22 2005,10:43)]Evolution has no repurcusions? Man and i thought apes turning into humans was a big deal. lol
smile_n_32.gif

Well yeah, depending on what is important...

Discussing it doesn't: Believing or disbelieving in evolution won't affect the reality, whatever that may be. However, understanding how superstrains develop and an awareness of their presence does have a real effect on our future.

Another way of looking at it is that the application of antibiotic-imposed selection and mutation (~evolution) to bacteria is what counts, not whether or not there really was a missing link.
No one said its important, i just wanted to know what everyone thought about evolution, which was the purpose of the thread. Hence "Where does everyone stand" was the topic header.

It just got totally out of hand.. lol 112 pages!!!!!!
 
  • #14
Yes indeed!

And as i surmised, an infinitely more urgent, but not (potentially) religiously controversial topic has already more or less died.

Such a funny species. We're so prone to fight over firmly held convictions even when our species track has a bridge out and no one is at the tiller.
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  • #15
I agree with nep g. on this... the reason why America is always getting sick is because we're so obsessively clean. Ridding ourselves and our evironment of every imaginable germ just deprives our immune systems of that taste of disease it needs to build up a defense against it. This is why France is so healthy... other than pointless butt-washing, they're not all that clean, so they have strong immune systems due to their frequent exosure to germs, therefore it's alot harder for them to get sick. That's how vaccinations work: most of them are actually weakened versions of whatever disease it immunizes you against, and that germ stimulates your immune system to produce antibodies against it, making it virtually impossible for you to get it. That's why I don't wash my hands that often. Even after I handle my leopard gecko.. while it's completely possible I could get Salmonella from him, I still only wash my hands half of the times I handle him, since it's good for my immune system to get a taste of the germ once in a while so it can build up a defense. Obsessive cleanliness is an easy way to disease, because obsessive cleanliness keeps you from ever experiencing germs, therefore making it impossible for your immune system to fight a disease if ever exposed to it. Virtually every sickness you can come down with, not just chickenpox, will never occur again in your body, because, after experiencing it, your immune system knows how to fight it. There are many variations of the common cold or the flu; you are infected with one variation and it never happens again. You may get a cold or the flu again in your life, but it will be a different variation, since new variations are popping up all the time. Households that insist on washing their hands, like, 900 times a day and taking showers when they don't need to take showers get sick at the drop of a hat when they're exposed to germs. But people like me, on the other hand, who aren't hypochondriacs and who aren't obsessed with cleanliness rarely get sick, and when they do, it only lasts a short time.
 
  • #16
A very interesting topic, especially for me considering I am a microbiologist.

So, my thoughts on the matter. As D. said, superstrains are a fact, these are not some media induced frenzy that we hear about so often about so many minor idiotic things. The many problems creating these beasts are: 1) Not using the full perscription as given. 2) Using antimicrobials when not needed and 3) Commercialization of antimicrobials.

So let us discuss.

The first of these is something that can only by taken care of by people perscribed antimicrobials. There is not a lot that any organization can do to make people take all of their medicine. However, I think that with all the anti-smoking and anti-drug commercials out there that maybe someone with half a brain might have the foresight to make a commercial or two on the matter. I predict it will happen some day but not until the superstrains become epidemic rather than sporadic.

2) This is something I personally think the AMA and FDA need to address. They control the doctors and the dispensation of the drugs so they can darn well shut them down for passing out antimicrobials to the wrong people. It is a real sore spot with me that doctors will pass out drugs that are not needed and I actually got in a verbal fight with the last doctor I went to over this. My only imediate solution is that all people who feel like I do should be vocal about it and should tell doctors 'NO' when they try to perscibe antimicrobials for no good reason. And as a point of clarification, "This will help fight any secondary infectinos while the viral infection resolves itself" is NOT a good reason.

3) This last one is my biggest pet peeve of all time. The commercialization of antimicrobials is, as has been mentioned, making us a sterile nation. When you arenot perpetually exposed to bacterial (both pathogenic and non-pathogenic) then your immune system gets weak or "naive" as we scientists like to say. The addition of tricolsan to every last product on the market could be the very thing that triggers the superstrain outbreak on a national level. Triclosan is a highly stable molecule so when you use it it stays around and perpetually promotes for seletion to resist it (this is the pepper moths all over again boys and girls.) On top of that, triclosan has a really annoying habit of being a trigger for bacteria to activate other resistance genes. This is most obvious in Pseudomonas which will activate every resistance gene in its genome in responce to contact with triclosan. Now most people think that this does not matter much because Pseudomonas is primrily a opportunist but if your immune system is naive then you offer a good foothold for opportunists. Pseudomonas are also pretty promiscuous so they will share their resistance genes with other bacteria.

There is not a lot that can be done at this point about commercial antimicrobials. I have written companies and, on the rare occasion some one takes the time to reply, the answer is that there is 'profit in antimicrobials so we'll keep making them thank you very much.' Again, I think the FDA needs to step in but the odds of that happening are as good as the proverbial snowball's.

About all I can do these days is make myself safe. I refuse to take antibiotics unless I absolutly have to take them and then I take all of them. I never buy any product with triclosan. I lecture my family and friends every chance I get to make them understand. Above all I do my best to not live a sterile life. If there is dirt on my hands I do not freak out and douse myself in bleach. I don't run for cover every time some one sneezes. I don't rush to wash my habds after I shake someone elses. I don't wash my hands after petting the dog or holding my snake. I get vaccinations for the necessary things (and dustin is right here, the flu vac is pointless if you are a health person) and I get them often to keep my immune system up and running. Heck, I even get vaccinations for things I probably won't need, like Yellow fever, because there is a chance for cross protectivity (for example, did you know that St Louis encephalitis vaccine protects agains West Nile? I bet you didn't. It also protects agains LaCrosse encephalitis and a number of others.)

At the very least I take heart in the fact that the the rise of the superstrains will keep me employed for a long time to come. That might be a morbid way of looking at it but the truth can be morbid sometimes.
 
  • #17
[b said:
Quote[/b] (nepenthes gracilis @ Jan. 23 2005,2:46)]just don't believe in Flu shots. I think they are a waste of money, let your body fend for itself.
Flu shots basically is like giving your immune system a mug shot of the bad guys before they they go in and cause mischief.

Last I got one, the flu shot was $15 and a loss of a single day of work for me and a everybody I know is worth more than $15.

But otherwise I don't worry too much about germs.

Right now my work is offering me a chance to get a free Heptatis B shot, because I have a remote chance of encountering it...haven't figured out if I want to get it yet.
 
  • #18
Gives me the idea to create a harmless drug that untill you got enough in your blood stream that it would create a headache for the patient if they stopped taking the drug too early. Basically if a person doesn't take all their medication, it will make them feel bad till they take it all.

Otherwise, I think doctors should have to rotate through antibiotics based off the month of the year. That way a strain would have a harder chance of becoming super as the environment it is trying to adapt to would keep changing. Basically go A -> B -> C instead of A -> A -> A. This is with hopes that there isn't anything immune to A, B and C.
 
  • #19
[b said:
Quote[/b] (jhaluska @ Jan. 25 2005,2:44)]Otherwise, I think doctors should have to rotate through antibiotics based off the month of the year.  That way a strain would have a harder chance of becoming super as the environment it is trying to adapt to would keep changing.  Basically go A -> B -> C instead of A -> A -> A.  This is with hopes that there isn't anything immune to A, B and C.
Here is a trap that tha majority of the public falls into. The time scale humans are used to can not apply when you are dealing with bacterial. With doubling times on the order of 20 minutes at 37C (that is body temp
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) you go through a couple million generations a day with bacterial. So in a matter of hours you take out all the hyper sensitive, in a day the sensitive, in 3-5 days the some what resistant and in a week all but the totally resistant and your body finishes those guys off while you finish the antimicrobials to keep the rest at bay. So basically a single bottle of antimicrobials has the potential to select for resistance if not taken properly. Rotating every month does not by-pass this because you basically have a month of selection for each resistant form.

IN all honest the best way to do it is to use cocktails of multiple drugs for each treatment but that will backfire in time for the same reasons as now (i.e. people won't take the full perscription.)

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Flu shots basically is like giving your immune system a mug shot of the bad guys before they they go in and cause mischief.

Last I got one, the flu shot was $15 and a loss of a single day of work for me and a everybody I know is worth more than $15.

In a way yes but if your body is only looking for that one mug shot then they miss all the other thugs that are similar. Flu shots really are kind of worthless for a number of reasons. First, they are made based on predivtive modles. So this year some yuts will guess what flu strain will be around next year and then they make a vaccine to that strain. Now given that there are somethig like 500 billion possible strains of flu it is quite possible that you will catch one that is different than the one you got the vaccination for. Secondly, it has been shown that about 40-50% of people get sick from the vaccine because the strain is not attenuated enough. And lastly, the immune response you mount to an actual flu infection is greater than that to the vaccine and so will last longer.

What it all boils down to is that if I get the shot I have a 50% chance of getting sick from that and then there is a significant chance I'll get sick anyways because the strain in the vaccine is different from the one that infects me so rather than run the risk of getting sick twice I'll just risk doing it once.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Right now my work is offering me a chance to get a free Heptatis B shot, because I have a remote chance of encountering it...haven't figured out if I want to get it yet.

I'd say do it. HepBB is a good thing to have immunity too and the vaccine has some marginal cross reaction to HepC. And on top of that, it is free
 
  • #20
shots give us the possibility, even a remote one, of wiping out some diseases completely. even a few hard-nosed 'mybody can handle it' people could have stood in the way between smallpox and its extinction
 
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