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First off, sorry for not being around lately, other responsibilities have been taking precedence. And yes UKC, I spell checked the big post
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LOL

Anyhow...
YAH! SERIOUSLY! If you don't want to believe me that’s fine, but please hear me out on this. In theory, it is totally possible to cross a VFT and a Sundew to produce offspring that is not only viable but also able to reproduce!

Now normally this is impossible, the two species would probably have different chromosome #'s and even if you did get a sundew species with the same # of chromosomes as a VFT, the two sets wouldn't recognize each other during meiosis (assuming you even had a living hybrid from the original cross which is unlikely because the DNA is SO different it would be more like having an incomplete set of chromosomes, or a haploid cell after the gametes combined)

BUT! If non-disjunction occurred in both the parent gametes(aka the sperm and the egg when they where first formed) the cross would produce a 4n cell. Because the parent data from each original donor is so different from the other plant, it functions as though a single set from each parent is one very large set. This makes the offspring an effective instant 2n containing double the chromosomes of either parent. No only does the double set from each parent make the fertilized egg viable (now has full data set) it also lets the plant that grows from this produce its own offspring because chromosomes can recognize a partner and pair off successfully.

This viable hybrid would not be able to cross back to parent pants (without some other mishap) and would effectively become its own brand new species! How cool is that?! The new species would be of the type called an Allopolyploid (or to be precise, an Allotetraploid in this example).

So why hasn't it happened? Probably in part do to the low sexual reproductive rate of VFT and their extremely limited range. It's also a rare event for the events to coincide, but it DOES happen in nature! In fact, many scientists feel most of our crop plants came from humans stumbling on the individual lone freaks and propagating them. One of the classic recorded cases is Salt Marsh Grass. About 100 years ago, a new super large robust grass showed up in Europe. The native species had 60 chromosomes... oddly enough, the American species had 62 and this sudden new species, It had 162! Cha-ching natural Allopolyploid! Of course, humans can speed this up in the lab using chemicals to prevent non-disjunction, but it's not always an artificial process.

As CP people you're also probably aware of the Sundew's habit of doubling its chromosomes and then self pollinating. That how we get a lot of our funky species. This is basically the same thing but involves one plant's disjunction fertilizing another plant's disjunction (it's more common for sundew to produce 3n "sterol" hybrids and then pollinate themselves and occasionally make a 4n (normal fertile) and 5n"steriol" in our collections). I live in MI which is a hot spot for this event in round-leaf, long-leaf and spatulata sundew's doing this (an article in the CP journal is about this).

Okay, okay, so you’re thinking that Darcie is just spouting off without knowing all the facts and she is getting too much out of her genetics’ lecture and somewhere she is messed up and so this is wrong. HA HA! I may be a slow learner, but I DO learn. I spent some time going over the concepts with my Genetics’ professor (who is like a genetic engineering god, she is sooo awesome and know like practically EVERYTHING&#33
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, and I was very careful to include all the details about the distant relationship and ect ect. Well, her conclusion is that their is no foreseeable reason why, if this where to be done, the resulting gamete would be not able to grow into a viable plant (that sentence is confusing, she said yes it could happen). Pretty darn awesome isn't it? Apparently it has to do with plant's extremely high tolerance for chromosomal accumulation and assimilation. As long as two plants are not extremely different in morphology (aka monocot and dicots) they can be crossed. Weird hun?

Obviously, the chance of doing this without lab chemical work is very small. I would imagine one would have to obtain a first generation 4n plant of each species and cross them in the hopes of the 2n from each entering the new cell where close enough to recognize each other still.

Anyhow, I thought I'd share this most interesting bit of data and also ask: Has anyone tried this yet?!

Thoughts, comments, ideas... it's so cool I'd love to have a conversation on it
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What you really need to do is cross a VFT with a Nepenthes...Can anyone one say..man eating plant?

Anywhoo..I'm instrested in what the plant would look like...dewy traps? lol
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Yah, I'd love to see what sort of weird thing came out of a cross like that too
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Unfortunetly for tropical pichure plants, I think that may be getting to distent for much hope of crossing. As to really big VFT's, and I'm just going by what I know about plants in general here, if you got a big enough pollyploid (pure vft with extra chromosome sets) like a 20n or something, you should get a super large plant. I guess thats how they got all those sizes of mum flowers for example. Sort of funny how extra chromosomes just make plants get bigger
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Polyploidy typically results in smaller stockier thicker leaved, slower growing plants. Flowers are often longer lived because of the extra substance and in some cases larger than the diploid type.

As for crossing a VFT with another genus.. Could it be done?
Yes although it might take some fancy lab work.

Personally I think the result would be not worth the effort. Odds are you would get something of a mishmash of traits that leaves you with a plant that can't really function properly.
Tony
 
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Yah, but it would still be fun to try. Your description of how plants respond to additional chromosomes is one of many ways they can respond. According to my texts and genetic professor, most are larger overall, grow faster and are more robust then haploid counterparts. I also know personally this is the case in MI sundews. Usually the only time you get that uneven issue is when only a pair or two of chromosomes double up insted of the entire set or when you have a triploploid. I guess we all have differnt idea's on what is worth the effort. I mean yah, you could get a messed up freak of a plant, or you could get a totally awsome new species. I will say that creating 4n and 8n flytraps is probubly a more commerially profitable endevor since that's one way to make giant type vfts.
 
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Hmm... *news headlines*"Petflytrap has made partnership with darcie as they embark on creating a new species of carnivorous plant! The plant would be like a flytrap, but the petioles would have dew drops on it, and each dew drop would be inside a secluded microscopic trap!
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The largest trap, at the end of the petiole, would be the normal size of a vft, but the inside of the trap would have dew&#33
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"*

Seriously, I think it would be cool, a dewy leaf and a trappy... trap
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Good luck darcie if you decide to try it! You;d make millions!
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Then you could sell a clone to pft to get tissue cultured...
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this has been done before with unsuccesful results , they have bred a flytrap with a d. regia i guess and the offsprings were weak and died , you can try again though . there has also been a time when a heliamphora was crossed with a darlingtonia , same result . although i would really like to see a cross like this so keep on trying .
 

schloaty

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yah, but it would still be fun to try[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Easy, Dr. Maureau, easy!
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What would you call that, anyway? x'Sticky Fingers' ??
 
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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">x'Sticky Fingers' [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I am guessing that has a tint of Martial Arts in that name.
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Travis
 

schloaty

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Travis LOL!

Didn't even think of that, actually. Embarrased to say it came from Home Alone 2....the sticky fingers bandits....you know, where the doofy burgler had tape or glue or something on his hand as was stealing hats off peoples' heads.
 
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LOL. I am like wow that is a good name. Makes sence, dew is the sticky part and the trap is the hand heheheha. Hey, Home Alone 2 was good for something.
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Travis
 

Ozzy

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Darcie, I'm sorry to say that almost everything you said went right over my head. Most of it, I don't have a clue to what you meant. I'm not knocking you, I'm just saying I don't unerstand it. I don't know very much about genitics.
Like Goldtrap said this has been done, and failed every time. the seeds sprouted then died. Vft's and sundews both come from the same famliy Droseraceae.
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">  It's also a rare event for the events to coincide, but it DOES happen in nature![/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I'm sure that vft's and sundew have crossed in nature since the vft's grow along side many different sundews. I'm also sure that the result was very similar to all the experiments so far. Either seeds that didn't sprout or plantlets that died soon after they sprouted.
Keep trying you never know what you'll get.
 
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I believe if you get it to work it would produce a plant with,a vft type trap that reacts slower,the fingers on the trap would have dew,it might have dew on the inside of the trap,it would probably be realy weird looking,and it should be called xDiosera darcieanea Or somethin` like that.
 
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Oh,and the reason I think the fingers would have dew is that they are most likely tenticals that have just adapted to not have dew any more as it was no longer needed. Has any body tried crossing D.californica and S.psticiana?
 
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if the seeds sprouted means it can happen if you can keep it alive so why dont you do something about it?try out what environments and etc, and maybe make a special kind of "fertilizer"to keep it alive and those kinds of stuff...

ill try doing it if i was as smart as you and if i had free time and a lab(with workers)
good luck!
 

Pyro

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As I am working on my PhD in genetics this is an interesting read for me. First off, yes someone has tried making a VFT x Drosera cross-- VFT x D. regia to be precise. This is probably the only way the cross would work because it is the only Drosera even close enough genetically to the VFT. All the attempts (there have been a few) have produced either seed that failed to germinate or the few sprouts that were had all died before it could be determined if they were hybrids or just weak self-crossed D. regia. From what I have read the VFT has to be the pollen plant as the reverse cross has never produced anything.

To successfully get a hybrid plant from these genera I am guessing that you are going to need to do it in vitro and even then I am guessing that the odds are not that good. Granted polyploidy can occasionally generate a viable offspring the failure rate is very high and even the success stories still have something wrong with them in the long (or short) run.
 
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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Pyro @ Oct. 07 2003,3:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">First off, yes someone has tried making a VFT x Drosera cross-- VFT x D. regia to be precise. This is probably the only way the cross would work because it is the only Drosera even close enough genetically to the VFT.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
You answered my question Pyro, I was wondering why they tried with a D.regia and not a D.Capensis. As D.capensis is know for being a weed in collections and at times seems indestructible.
 
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I think it has something to do with the number of chromosones.  D. Regia is closer genetically to a VFT than D. Capensis is.

SF
 

Pyro

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Yes SF you are correct, D. regia is genetically the closest Drosera to a VFT. Even so, the two plants are actually quite distant in terms of phylogeny
 
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