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Polyploid CPs?

Hey guys. I've been reading a little bit about polyploid organisms. Basically, it's where chemicals are used to make plants double or triple their chromosome number (it works with animals, too, but is fatal). I was thinking about doing this to plants like orchids and various CPs that are commonly grown out of tissue culture. Just add yet another hormone and get a new species! Apparently, people already do this to create new species of plants using things like citrus and banana. Any home TC'ers out their should research these chemicals and try it out.

-D. Lybrand
 
I'm in class so I don't have much time to respond here, but let me warm you. THESE CHEMS ARE DANGEROUS. Chemicals that cause your DNA to alter in any way are dangerous. These are carcinogens that don't play nice. More to come once I'm at home...
 
Hey, I'm in class, too! ...sort of. Sounds to me like it wouldn't be a good idea for home TCers. Well, there are still a significant number of professionals TCing CPs. Maybe some will hear about this and try it out! I bet you could get some pretty cool stuff after a couple of generations (if they weren't sterile).

-D. Lybrand
 
most of the fertile hybrid drosera are polyploids. Try looking at some of the old listservs for posts by Ivan Snyder, he does a lot of work with it. I know of a number of other TCers that are using cholchisine (sp??) on seeds of things too. Does not necessarily do much most of the time. about all you can expect is gigantism or fertile hybrids.

Also, polyploidy is not always fatal in the animal kingdom. Numerous frog species are polyploids. Two that spring to mind are grey and Cope's grey tree frogs (the former is a tetraploid of the latter) and Chacoan and ornate horned frogs (the latter of which is an octoploid of the former.) Insects too, and I think there is at least one lizard species...
 
Octoploid?! That's ridiculous! How do you get a polyploid frog?

-D. Lybrand
 
Why am I reminded of John Madden's 8-legged Thanksgiving turkeys?!
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Seriously, there are people who have 6 digits on each hand.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (dlybrand @ Feb. 21 2006,9:28)]Octoploid?! That's ridiculous! How do you get a polyploid frog?
It is not ridiculous it is absolute fact. If you don't believe me then google it I am sure all the info you need is there. Try it for both the frogs I mentioned, you'll see.

I'll even do the first step for you. If you perform a google search for "Ceratophrys ornata, octoploid" the first 2 hits you get are these 2 articles which I have copied straight off of the PubMed database:

Rahn IM, Martinez A.

Chromosome pairing in female and male diploid and polyploid anurans (Amphibia) from South America.
Can J Genet Cytol. 1983 Oct;25(5):487-94.

Abstract:

Chromosome pairing in females and males of diploid (2n = 22) and tetraploid (2n = 44) Odontophrynus americanus and diploid Ceratophrys cranwelli (2n = 26) and tetraploid C. ornata (2n = 104) showed that diploid females formed more chiasmata per paired arm than diploid males and polyploids of both sexes. There was a reduction in the level of recombination in female polyploids by forming multivalents with terminal chiasmata. The reduction reflected a change in the genetic control of pairing in females after polyploidization

(note that even though they say "tetraploid" in the abstract if you do the actual math it is octoploid.)

And this one as well:

Leipoldt M, Kellner M.

Ribosomal RNA structure in the diploid and phylogenetically polyploid amphibian species Hyla and Odontophrynus.
Comp Biochem Physiol B. 1984;79(2):181-5.

Abstract:

Ribosomal RNA of the diploid amphibian species Hyla chrysoscelis and Odontophrynus americanus is structurally modified by hidden breaks. Phylogenetically polyploid related species like the tetraploid Hyla versicolor, the tetraploid Odontophrynus americanus and the octoploid Ceratophrys ornata do not show hidden breaks in ribosomal RNA. Structural modifications of rRNA molecules in diploid amphibians has no detectable effect on the ribosomal activity in vitro.


To get an octoploid I would guess would require a 2 step evolutionary process. First you would get a tetraploid animal, either from a failed first stage mitotic division of the embryo or from 2 diploid gametes combining. These tetraploids would then have to mate against themselves or against a normal diploid animal. In the first case you could go through the same processes above. In the second case only a diploid gamete from the diploid parent would work. At a guess, since a tetraploid intermediate has not been found I am guessing that it was not evolutionarily stable and died off leaving only the diploid and the octoploid.

Of course that is just my radical theory since amphibian genetics is not my absolute field of study (I am bacterial geneticist
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[b said:
Quote[/b] (jimscott @ Feb. 22 2006,8:51)]Why am I reminded of John Madden's 8-legged Thanksgiving turkeys?!
smile_k_ani_32.gif


Seriously, there are people who have 6 digits on each hand.
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6fingers_sadhu.JPG


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6_fingers_web.jpg


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Well, I think we've identified Carito's fetish
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  • #10
People use Colochine / Colquine (spelling?) on some plants, which is a dna morphing chemical. Usually they use it for pot plants to hide the distinctive leaf shape when grown outdoors. I just read something about it's use with orchids last week but I'll have to find it again.

...just imagine smoking something treated with that?? Maybe that's how those people above got those extra fingers?
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  • #11
Well, when I said it was ridiculous, I suppose 'amazing' would have been a better choice. Anyway, I believe it, I just think it's crazy how different octoploid animals could be from their diploid predecessors after a couple of generations!

Hey! I learned something today and I'm not even in school... like all those other times I learned something!

-D. Lybrand
 
  • #12
If Colochine/Colquine is the same thing I am thinking of (colchicine) then it does not mutate the DNA, it actually causes the spindles to not form during mitotic divison so when the cell first divides the "duplicated" DNA is not seperated from the original and gets left in the divided cell. Depending on the concentration of colchicine there can be anywhere from 2 to 1000 duplicate copies of the DNA/cell.

Also found this little tidbit while surfing around:

Polyploidy is much rarer in animals. It is found in some insects, fishes, amphibians, and reptiles. Until recently, no polyploid mammal was known. However, the 23 September 1999 issue of Nature reports that a polyploid (tetraploid; 4n = 102) rat has been found in Argentina.

And I also recalled form my intro to genetics class (some 10 odd years ago) that our own livers can have polyploid cell.

As for someone smoking colchicine treated pot... Shold not have any major effect since it is only used on the seeds and by the time anything was harvested the colchicine would have broken down. Of course, with 2 copies of the THC gene the plants might have twice the concentration so maybe that could do something...?

As for the octoploid and the diploid being different, really they are pretty much the same

C. ornata the octoploid

C. cranwelli the diploid

The ornata are a bit larger (can eat adult rats
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at least mine used to) and colourful and have a slightly different head/jaw structure. To most people they look like the same frog though. Heck even the armchair "professionals" and dealers get them confused because all the albino "pacman" frogs are actually cranwelli yet you often see them listed as ornata.
 
  • #13
Harsh weather or strange environmental conditions can also cause polyploidy. My professor suggested I cool the stigma of my flowering Nepenthes to induce it to produce diploid gametes...
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Often, these species are much larger, have much better foliage and outstanding traits. However they grow in specific conditions, usually found near a nutrient/water/sunlight rich place etc...

I think they can be fertile (with either parent?) or with the same type of polyploid. While in animals a single DNA mutation would already cause havoc, not to mention diploid gametes.
 
  • #14
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Jason Wong @ Feb. 23 2006,8:24)]While in animals a single DNA mutation would already cause havoc, not to mention diploid gametes.
Sorry, I just have to agrue with you on this point Jason (just part of my being a geneticist) I am not doing it to be mean, I just want the world to actually understand the truth and not what the media spouts out.
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Most single DNA mutations are actually totally and completely unnoticed (we in the field call them "silent") The degenerate nature of DNA is the main cause behind this though there is some small part to play in the nature of protein folding.

If you are really interested in learning more about genetics and you can deal with storng opionioned writters than I recommend Richard Dawkins. Start with The Selfish Gene, if you like that he has a bunch of others.
 
  • #15
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Decapod73 @ Feb. 23 2006,1:23)]Well, I think we've identified Carito's fetish
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eee eheheh
 
  • #16
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Pyro @ Feb. 23 2006,10:08)]Most single DNA mutations are actually totally and completely unnoticed (we in the field call them "silent") The degenerate nature of DNA is the main cause behind this though there is some small part to play in the nature of protein folding.
To elaborate on Pyro's point here (I AM NOT A GENETICIST! DO NOT BELIEVE ANYTHING I SAY UNTIL HE CONFIRMS IT!), I think most gene mutations in DNA are point mutations, meaning a single base is changed. This is one way through which we get genetic diversity. Frameshift mutations (deletion/addition) cause more problems and chromosomal mutations are the ones that can really screw you up. Once again, I could be completely wrong.

-D. Lybrand
 
  • #17
the thing that sticks out in my mind from when I learned about polyploidy is, say you have two watermelon plants.  one is normal, with 2n chromosomes.  the other, through chemicals or genetic anomally, has 4n chromosomes.  they both produce sex cells, with n and 2n chromosomes respectively.  when the gametes join together, the offspring has 3n chromosomes...which is infertile.  in other words, seedless watermelon!
 
  • #18
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Presto @ Feb. 24 2006,2:01)]the thing that sticks out in my mind from when I learned about polyploidy is, say you have two watermelon plants.  one is normal, with 2n chromosomes.  the other, through chemicals or genetic anomally, has 4n chromosomes.  they both produce sex cells, with n and 2n chromosomes respectively.  when the gametes join together, the offspring has 3n chromosomes...which is infertile.  in other words, seedless watermelon!
Would that work with mangoes?
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It's annoying cutting around that big old pit!
 
  • #19
I enjoy mangoes very much. The pits are important if you want to grow your own!

-D. Lybrand
 
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