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Pinguicula 'Weser' vs 'Sethos'

Joseph Clemens

Joseph Clemens

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http://www.humboldt.edu/~rrz7001/Pinguicula.html

Using the photo links just compiled by BobZ and comparing images to the formal cultivar descriptions it appears that there may be a bit of confusion between Pinguicula 'Weser' and Pinguicula 'Sethos'. It seems that most persons growing P. 'Weser' may be growing mis-identified P. 'Sethos' instead. Even the image used as a standard for P. 'Weser' appears to possibly be mis-identified.

If you received Pinguicula 'Weser' from me recently in my give-away, please make note that it very well may be Pinguicula 'Sethos' instead.
 
Hi Joseph

Are you saying that the plants that look like this are in fact  Pinguicula 'Sethos'?    Sethos?.

I'm quite prepared to accept your I.D., based on the original description, plants that look like this are produced in their 1000s by dutch nurseries and distributed labelled as P. 'Weser' throughout Europe.

Is there a photograph of genuine P. 'Weser' on the web? Is this one?  
P. Weser?.

I grow two plants with similar, but significantly different flowers, which were both obtained, labelled as P. 'Weser'. One is identical to the plants you now think to be P. 'Sethos' and the other I obtained from Peter Cole, when he ran Cambrian Carnivores in the UK (now unfortunately, no longer trading). These plants are not in flower at the moment, but when they do, I shall look very closely at them, they definitively have the purple-veining, I'm not sure about the shape of the white area around the throat. They do not, however, look anything like the photograph in the second link. If I think they fit the original description for  P. 'Weser', I will endeavour to post a photograph of the flower.

Thanks for pointing out this I.D. mix-up.

Cheers

Vic
 
Joseph,

Thank you for the information and taking the time to let everyone know.

Issues like this are what truly make things like this board so valuable. Misidentification and improper naming are 2 of the problems cp growers are always running into and anything that assists in getting these issues cleared up and knowledge out to the general population of growers is wonderful.

With that said I have an issue that I would love to find a way to resolve. Living in a harsh climate, most of my plants spend alot of the year indoors and under lights, less than optimal conditions but the best I can provide. My plants do not always show the best color and in some cases the plant shape itself has changed to adapt to the conditions it is in. so when I go out to search through descriptions and pictures available my plants do not match with the posted information. I understand that people want to show the plants in their best condition in thier pictures - brightest colors, best shaped, etc - this unfornately doesn't always apply to my plants and it makes identification difficult. I would love to set up a location where people could post pictures of their plants - but only if the identity is certain - that would show the plants in all their variations and the conditions the plant is grown in. Let me know your thoughts and if this would fly - I will set up a method to make it happen.

Thanks & Cheers
 
Yes, my impression, after examining all the posted image links and carefully evaluating the written descriptions, that even this link Pinguicula 'Sethos' is not Pinguicula 'Weser', but rather it is Pinguicula 'Sethos'. I am also not convinced that the link Pinguicula 'Weser' is correctly identified either. But I do believe there is a true Pinguicula 'Weser' in cultivation and I would like to obtain one to add to my own collection.

I invite comment.
 
I believe that the Pinguicula 'Weser' photo at sarracenia.com is the true thing. It has the solitary white streak on the lower central lobe. The lighting might be covering up the darker veins.
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">...that even this link Pinguicula 'Sethos' is not Pinguicula 'Weser', but rather it is Pinguicula 'Sethos'.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

You mean the link of 'Weser' is not 'Weser', but rather it is 'Sethos'
smile.gif


I believe this is true also, but it is hard to tell because of the lighting.
 
I wrote a note to Barry (sarracenia.com) last week telling him about this discussion in hopes that he might interact. If so moved, some of you might drop him a note asking his opinion on the 'Weser'/'Sethos' confusion.

-Bob-
http://www.humboldt.edu/~rrz7001/
 
As many persons, I bought plants from garden centers (Dutch nursery at the origin). The plants are very often mislabelled.

When you do a crossing, you have many differences between flowers in the result. If you choose one nicer for exemple, this one can be published as a cultivar. This way, the only possibility to multiplicate is via cuttings only. A new seedling will do many other things not the parent.

Officialy, you must see the picture in slack book "carnivorous plants and how to grow them" :
P. 'Weser' has the solitary white streak on the lower central lobe
P. 'sethos' don't. It is closer than a white spot in star (I don't have the true english word sorry).

In Dutch nursery, they did the first croos of Slack and saw all the seeds and give to all he plants the name 'weser' !

It is false. You can buy the original and true clone in J.J. LABAT, NATURE ET PAYSAGE Nursery. He bought it from A. Slack himself many years before.
His nursery is a worth to see, and he is a really botanic professional.

Here is the link. He do worldwide mail but it is not possible yet to buy on-line. http://www.natureetpaysages.com/
 
So you are reporting that hundreds or thousands of unique clones of the hybrid Pinguicula moranensis x Pinguicula ehlersiae and/or Pinguicula ehlersiae x Pinguicula moranensis have been distributed as Pinguicula 'Weser'. Now that is some real sad news.

I would be very interested to have the opportunity to observe the "standard" images of these cultivars from Adrian Slack's book (Insect-Eating Plants and How to Grow Them), but alas I am unable to locate a copy of it.
 
  • #10
Thanks to Eric Partrat's assistance in sending me a scanned copy of the "standards" image of these two cultivars from page 113 of Insect Eating Plants and How to Grow Them by Adrian Slack, I compiled this page:

Weser vs Sethos or is it something else

It is now enabled, I am claiming "fair use".

Apparently the "standard" supports the description in the text very well. Neither cultivar appears to have "pink" flowers, nor do the written descriptions support "pink" flowers. I am in doubt about the ID of the plant I had obtained as Pinguicula 'Weser'. I once thought it might be Pinguicula 'Sethos', but since seeing the "standard" for that cultivar I believe it might just be an unnamed cultivar of the hybrid Pinguicula moranensis x Pinguicula ehlersiae.
 
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  • #11
Joseph,

How different in coloration are those Slack flowers different than your clones'? I mean maybe the printer had a tone error? Then again it seems that the lobes of the petals on Slack's plants are more full than yours.
 
  • #12
Yes, the shape and color are distinctly different. More than enough for me to have serious doubts about calling my plants by any of the registered cultivar names for this hybrid.

I gauge this not just by the "standard" photograph colors, but by the colors written in the descriptions.
 
  • #13
PMan, thanks for putting up the scanned photos and standard in one document. This helps a lot . Now, it is up to those growing and distributing these plants to take a close look at their plants and fix misidentifications and also to correctly name the photos that they have posted on their web sites.
 
  • #14
A couple of months ago, I made some comments about moranensis var. caudata "Longwood" and how these are a hybrid between moranensis and ehlersiae. Today, I compared some flowers of the 'Sethos'(from CC) and my caudata "longwood" and I can tell no difference at all. The first flower of the season of my 'Sethos' from CC was purple, but now the plant is producing flowers of a pink-purple coloration. Maybe this is caused by a lengthening photoperiod, warmer temps etc.
These plants produce flowers like the 'Sethos' in the links above.
On another note, I have a rectifolia that has produced a flower with 4 lobes(one on top, three towards the bottom:)
 
  • #15
A cultivar can only be reproduced by cuttuings (cloning) or state otherwise (see P.'Aphrodite' extract below).

A. Slack named only one plant 'Sethos' and only one 'Weser' from the same parentage after a crossing and a selection between all the plants he had.

If you are sure that your plants are derivated from A. Slack plants, you can use the names. If not, we should use the name 'similis weser' and 'similis sethos' or another name you could register. Maybe the original crosses are lost and extinct. I am sure that J.J. LABAT have the original clone of Sethos but for weser, he had it from Japan and the person there can't remimber who gave it his plants.

As stated before, this is not the same for P.'Aphrodite' as many plants are named that way :

here is an extract from their description in their site :
"we were able to observe the nature of a large number of individual plants. We did not find any significant variability among the individual germinated plants; hence we regard all the individuals resulting from this crossbreeding as identical. The plants are eminently interesting, unique and deserve a special epithet. We have sufficient information to describe the new cultivar we name Pinguicula ‘Aphrodite’".
 
  • #16
About the 'Aphrodite', I grow a clone of this plant, which I received from Jan Flisek(2-3 years ago) and it looks very different from the 'Aphrodite' on: P.'Aphrodite'
For one thing, the lobes on the corolla of my clone is much more rounded than the plant shown on the pic. Also, occasionally at the LACPS meetings, other growers bring in P.'Aphrodite' to show, but their plants are a golden green(like gigantea), while mine is reddish. I highly doubt that this is due to lighting as they grow their plants in greenhouses with 50-70% shade(I use 70% shade). I cannot see how these clones are identical.
Otherwise, this is a very nice and easy to grow hybrid.
 
  • #17
I see from the description of Pinguicula 'Aphrodite' Aphrodite Description that the focus is mostly on the vegetative appearance of the plant and the particulars of the flower are a bit more vague.
 
  • #18
Thanks Pinguiculaman,

That makes a lot more sense about the flower issue. Still, the description of 'Aphrodite' states that the midrib of the leaf is green, but my plants are a light red...
 
  • #19
Sounds like we should email Kamil or Jan to get their input on this.
 
  • #20
This is a most excellent topic, thanks for the information presented here by all. This is what posting should be about!
 
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