One more terrarium question for you pros

[Leo]

Hi again, and sorry to keep spamming this board with terrarium questions.  

  I just want to make sure I don't make any mistakes.

I'm considering a 20g tank, and these come in two types - tall and wide.  Wide would be nice because I could fit more plants, but I'm worried that some nepenthes may quickly vertically outgrow the tank, and also that the light source being closer would heat things up too much.  Is there a suggested minimum height requirement for highland neps?  In particular, I'll be growing a ventricosa, sanguinea, and judith finn (high-low hybrid).  Would you suggest going tall or going wide?  

Also a quick light question - warm white vs cool white is simply a difference in color and has nothing to do with temperature, does it?  Or does warm white indeed get a little hotter than cool white?  Thanks in advance!

Leo

 

[swords]

Hi Leo,

I have a Ventricosa, Judith Finn and Maxima all in a DIY wood and plexiglass case which is 4 feet tall, 2 feet wide and 2 feet deep. It gets 15 minutes of humidification every 2 hours while the lights are on and only a couple times overnight. I coudl drastically reduce the humidifiers use if I'd made the case watertight but wood soaks up water/mist easily/quickly. the plus side is I should get moss growing on the walls and that will be neat!

I am using a Vicks Ultrasonic cool mist humidifier model V5100
Phazer IV compact flourescent lighting 110 watts. each 55 watt tube puts out about 8000 lumens so these two are equal in lumens to a 250 watt metal halide bulb but does not have the heat associated with MH. It does get warm (about 80* in the high parts of the terrarium) after a 14 hour "on" cycle but I will be putting a 4" PC fan (get em at radioshack) on the top of the tank to increase air movement and to suck warm air up and out of the tank.

You need to realize that a taller terrarium requires higher wattage light (to reach the plants lower leaves) if you're settled on a single 15 watt flourescent you'd better stick with that 10 gallon til you're willing to up the ante on your lighting system cos at low light lumens/lux/wattage (however you wanna rate it) the light won't reach long distances in a suitable quanity unless you are only supplementing natural light (something I can't do due to bad window placement in my condominium 

)

I use 29 gallon terrariums (it's as high as the 20 gallon tall and as long as the 20 long-the best of both worlds&#33

If you have a Petsmart near you you can score a 29 gallon tank for about $25.99 plus $14.99 for a nice all glass lid. I one for my current smaller personal plants in 6in pots- the other one is just a propagation chamber for cuttings I haven't figured out what exactly I'm gonna do when all my neps start getting large!  

 

Good luck-terraiums rule!

 

[Martin]

"...each 55 watt tube puts out about 8000 lumens..."

are you sure

8000 lumens seems to be a lot for a 55 W tube

my 70W high pressure sodium light has an output of 5600 lumen and I was told that they are the most effective plant lights avaiable.

Martin

 

[nepenthes gracilis]

I am no expert on lighting so I'll stay outta that.

Leo, I have the 20 gal. extra hihg for Rajah and cuttings and other Ultrahighlands. It works fine with 1 15watt flurescent BUT if your gonna do what I am doing you MUST put it near a south, or always bright window. Rajah os doing fine as it gets that light from the window and the 15 watt fluorescent. I would personally go with a wider tank but if your gonna put Gracilis,Tobaica,and other super vigorous Neps in there go with the tall one.

 

[Leo]

Thanks for all the info!

I think I'll make up my mind very soon. No, swords, I have already completely given up on the single 15w idea since reading the replies to my last topic, although I don't plan on going for as high as 8000 lumens either.

N.g. - ventricosa, sanguinea, and judith finn shouldn't be too supervigorous would they? So perhaps I could get away with the wide? But then, it seems easier to keep a tall one cooler. hmmmmmmmmmmm......

Leo

 

[steveo]

I am not an expert, but as I use a "long" tank and my neps (a ventricosa red and a Judith Finn) like it, I will stick in my two cents.

I do not humidify, nor do I have a fan, as the long tank setup seems to regulate itself. No direct sunlight.

The lights make about a 10-deg F-over-ambient difference if you leave a small gap in the lid on both ends of the tank--this is with 4 20W florescent bulbs and for me means a 15-20 deg difference over the course of a day (say 88 F to 73 F). You might get away with 2 bulbs in a long tank and still get growth if all you have are neps--I expect the heat difference from ambient in that case would be minor. Retained heat in the pots and other material, and insulation from the air trapped inside (no fan in my setup) keeps the tank warmer than ambient for 24 hours, so it will never drop to room temp.

Humidity in this 20 gal long tank is pretty irregular, going from 100% to about 80% on a daily cycle. I have not noticed that the plants care about this, though a drop below 70% might hurt the leaves. I do not run an air conditioner (yet), but if I did I would fill the gaps in the cover with permeable plastic (like that Glad "keep crisp" stuff with the holes) to allow for air transfer. That's the plan, anyway.

The ventricosa will grow all over the place. I've had mine about a month and the newest leaves are over twice the length of the ones it came with. Pitchering like mad, too--I've got about 4 new baby ones. It is not growing "up" yet, and probably won't for some years, but it is determined to grow out and invade the neighboring pots.

Steve

 

[Leo]

Steve, how many plants (and what kind, other than ventricosa and j.finn) do you keep in your terrarium?

Do you do anything to cool it down at night, like N.g.'s frozen water bottles?

Thanks for the info! Leo

 

[nepenthes gracilis]

Leo, Ventricosa and Sanguinea are pretty vigorous growers but wouldn't out grow a regular style terrarium super fast. I mean I can fit my ventricosa into the 5 and 1/2 gallon Merrilliana tank with no problems, due to it's compact growth and not viney uncompact growht like Tobaica! The Judith Finn wouldn't even begin to out grow the tank unless in about 5 years!

 

[swords]

I should clarify, I am using a Phazer IV Reef lighting unit by Red Sea (designed for growing stony corals) not a typical compact FL. These are easily obtainable at the salt water reef store you can also buy bulbs in a variety of color temps as well as wattages. At the moment I am actually blotting out the light from this with a dishtowel as it can still fry leaf edges even 3 feet up above the plants. You can buy a DIY version of this light set by purchasing two Lights of America "500 watt cool white work light" at wal mart for around $26.99. It is a 6500K cool white "flourex" compact flourescent screw in tube (a screw in double biax). one of these is 8700 lumens.

Boy was I steamed when I found these work lights at walmart (check near the halogen lights and look for a red white and blue box-look up www.lights-of-america.com under worklights) after spending well over $200 for mine at the reef shop...!

 

[Martin]

I had a look at this website and found 6825 lumen @ 65 W.

Even this seems to be extremly (almost unbelieveable) effektive...

It would be interesting if this data are correct and if the spectrum suits the plants...

martin

 

[swords]

Ok, guess my memory was a bit off but yes, it's a darn bright light and works fine for both coral fragments and plants-but like I said, you want to keep it up up and away from thin leaved plants. I burned my coccinea with it (that sounds almost dirty...) by using it over a 29 gallon tank as it was way too close for comfort. but the lights work real good over a tall enclosure.

The Lights of America light is about 6500K which is the color temp of sunlight around Chicago. Unfortunately I haven't been able to get ahold of just the flourex CF bulbs only the whole kit. You can order them from ESU you just need to do it by mail, no just running out and grabbing a few bulbs and a few regular pocelain sockets and building a lighting hood.

 

[steveo]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Leo @ June 10 2002,3:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Steve, how many plants (and what kind, other than ventricosa and j.finn) do you keep in your terrarium?
Do you do anything to cool it down at night, like N.g.'s frozen water bottles?
Thanks for the info! Leo[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I've got tropical sundews (a cape, a spat, and adelae, a diels) and a butterwort in there. The 4 lights (two cool, one warm, one gro-lux) are set up to keep the sundews happy at one end, while the neps are at the "dark" end of the tank. It is safe to say that the neps are getting a little more light than is perfect, but they are still a pretty healthy green color, perhaps a little lighter than is ideal. The Finn's pitchers are coloring up nicely once they mature. The butterwort, which is in full blast light, is also doing really well and sending up a flower stalk now--that has surprised me.

Since the tank drops 10-15 F every night, corresponding more or less with ambient temperature changes, I don't cool them at night. Airflow is maintained by venting both ends of the tank slightly and letting convection work its magic, 24/7. I'm hoping that this will not be a problem with J Finn and ventricosa, which are not really "highland" plants, as I understand the term. If I am exhausting them, I'd like to hear about it.

The length of the "day" is 16 hours right now--this is to suit the neps. I may or may not vary the photoperiod, depending on what the butterwort and sundews want, but I don't know what they want, yet.


Steve

 

[Leo]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (steveo @ June 11 2002,1:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I've got tropical sundews (a cape, a spat, and adelae, a diels) and a butterwort in there.  The 4 lights (two cool, one warm, one gro-lux) are set up to keep the sundews happy at one end, while the neps are at the "dark" end of the tank.  It is safe to say that the neps are getting a little more light than is perfect, but they are still a pretty healthy green color, perhaps a little lighter than is ideal.  The Finn's pitchers are coloring up nicely once they mature.  The butterwort, which is in full blast light, is also doing really well and sending up a flower stalk now--that has surprised me.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Wow, all that in a 20g tank?

May I ask what your tank's dimensions are and also what length fluorescents you use? Did you actually find a fixture that takes 4 tubes, or do you have 2 doubles, or do you have 4 singles?

After doing some lamp and pet store browsing, I'm so surprised at the variation out there in light fixture prices. The so-called "aquarium lights" are so expensive, even though I can't see much of a difference between them and ordinary "shop lights".

Leo

 

[swords]

I'm not Steve but I will say there is no sense in buying the expensive twin tube sets of lights at the pet store, just go to Home Depot or Lowes and buy two sets of 2 light fixtures. For the 20 gallon tank (either long or tall) the most cost effective setup is to use 24" tubes (these are a standard length and very inexpensive). If you end up getting a 55 gallon tank you can buy the 48" shop light fixtures and tubes very cheap as well.

If you go to my link below I can show you how to make a canopy for any size aquarium. I show you how to measure your tank and assemble a wooden canopy from those dimensions for use with those assemble yourself shop light fixtures from Home depot you CAN NOT use the prebuilt lights of america shoplight fixtures with a canopy because they are actually about 49"-50" since they are an exclosed unit instead of the celining mounted flourescent light strip kits. If you can use a drill and hand held jig saw (both tools run about $20 each if you don't have them) you'll never spend $100s on lights at the pet store again! I know I feel dumb paying $299 for a "solid oak" canopy (with no lights in it-those costed extra) for my first aquarium (75 gallon) when I could have built it (lights and all) for about $100!

Anyway, here's that link:
http://the-natural-aquarium.com/diycanopys.html

Sorry the graphics suck but other people have been able to build from them easily - I will update the graphics with real photos soon as I will be building a new canopy for a new 29 gallon in a couple days.

Hit the lights!

 

[steveo]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Leo @ June 12 2002,12:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Wow, all that in a 20g tank?

May I ask what your tank's dimensions are and also what length fluorescents you use? Did you actually find a fixture that takes 4 tubes, or do you have 2 doubles, or do you have 4 singles?
After doing some lamp and pet store browsing, I'm so surprised at the variation out there in light fixture prices. The so-called "aquarium lights" are so expensive, even though I can't see much of a difference between them and ordinary "shop lights".
Leo[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
My tank is W12" X H12" X L29" or therabouts. It was labeled "20g Long" but it may be larger. I use two shop light fixtures (clamped together) as swords suggests--24" tubes sitting on a plexiglass sheet.

I keep the nep's water warm by putting a small sealed container of distilled water on the light fixtures. Probably not a safe idea, but I hate wasting heat when I can put it to work. Legal disclaimer--I'm not recommending heating water this way to anyone!

With careful placement (sharing a water tray between plants with like requirements, for instance) I could get four more plants in there, easy. I have repotted them into space-friendly pots made of translucent drinking glasses. Very chic!

However, there is a cost to using the shop lights--they are ugly and ungainly, and unless you build a nice hood for them (see sword's post) are not easy to handle.

There may be a quality issue as well. Common sense tells me that this setup should be way too bright for these plants at this distance--yet it seems just right at a distance of 6 inches. I doubt if my Lowe's El Crappo brand shop lights are putting out anything like their rated intensity. A $150 aquarium hood might be better built.

Steve

 

[swords]

Steve that is indeed a 20 Long tank. I warm my spray bottle waters the same way, ontop the canopy. And extra RO bottles waiting to be used get warmed on top the fridge. Very true-why waste a good warmer!

The Lowes & Home Depot strip lights are the exact same thing as GE and Red Sea brand strip lights from the fish shop-just not as fancy (or expensive). No matter how they present it, a flourescent light is simply endcaps, wires, powercord and approprately rated ballast. You can actually get lights even cheaper than the flourescent DIY kits if you buy all these parts and assembling from scratch. Then, should you need to brightly light a terrarium and keep it cool at the same time you can set the ballast away from the tank and just run wires to the endcaps (lamp holders) and there will be almost no heat from the lighting whatsoever.

BTW if you think your bulbs seem "dim" remember to swap em out for new ones every 8-12 months. Do you have a reflector? If not get some polished aluminum flashing from Lowes/HD (about $8 for an 18" tall by 10 fot long sheet) build an arch that you can slide between the bulbs and the box the endcaps are mounted in. (you can use tinfoil too but the flashing is sturdier). this will give you almost 25% more light directed straight down than relying on light just going in.

 

[Leo]

Sweeeeeeet I'm gonna build me one of these swords canopies!

I'd probably stick some aluminum foil or other reflective material on the inside of the canopy to get more out of my lights, because I think I'll go with 2 instead of 4, as the terrarium will be solely for highland neps.

Yes, I agree with steve about the aesthetic unpleasantness of shop lights.

Leo