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How does one tell them apart?

JB_OrchidGuy

Cardiac Nurse
Ok I was just looking up some pictures of the few dews I have. How does one tell the different dews apart? I am talking about like D. tokaiensis from d. intermedia to d. capillaris. They all look the same basicly. Is it because of the flowers? Basicly like how the majority of Cattleya orchids look the same, but the flowers are different?
 
Hi JB_,

That sir is a very good question, LOL. There isn't an easy answer. Experience plays a big role in observational taxonomy. The more individuals you are exposed to, the better your eye gets. Various sections within Droseracae have their own criteria. Probably the most significant feature is generally (but not always) the floral details of the peduncle and where the scape arises, details of the sepals in regards to absence or presence of hairs, nature of the hairs on the scape and stipule division. The division of the styles is very important as well in many species. Details of the lamina as regards to shape: truncate, spatulate, round. Details of the seed testa sre also diagnostic. Least reliable are size and color since these change relative to the growing conditions.

In the cases you site, the upright held oval lamina held on petioles devoid of hairs, typical white flower and formation of hibernacula reveal this species. The hybrid D. tokaiensis is very similar to D. spatulata but with rounded lamina. For D. capillaris the details of the divided stipules is a good indicator.

No, they don't all look alike I can assure you. After awhile it isn't all that difficult to place the various species. I still have problems with some of the less familiar species like the pygmy Drosera and the South African species present a sticky problem (hehheh) due to the unrestricted fertilization in contiguous populations and complex hybrids possible with members sharing the same karyotype.

The various species in world wide distribution have certain characteristics that let you place them geographically for example looking at D. slackii, aliciae, admirabilis, cuneifolia there is a particular width of the petiole and lamina, and they are truncate to more or less of a degree. Seeing this, one places them as South Africans and we go from there probably using Obermeyer's Key to the South African Drosera Species

The Brasillian forms have a hariness and often deep red color.

Seed pods of the D. spatulata complex have reflexed sepals that do not close all the way, presenting a star like appearence when the seed is ripe a feature unique to this complex.

Of late cytological studies have been used to trace gene markers and seems to be regarded as the final word on species rank. It is not. Phenotype is not the function of a single gene, but the interplay of the entire genome, but it is another window into a 20 million year old process, and we welcome the data.

Other plants are easy to key: hard to mistake a Petiolaris Complex member, or D. regia!

Oh, it's not often cut and dry. Taxonomy is a highly opinionated science. Always remember the holotype is one member out of millions and can never capture the variation present in the field, asnd here again it is only the degree of the authors experience that lends credibility to the concept. It would be nice if we looked up a particular individual in the appropriate keys to find it conforms exactly, but this is more the exception rhan the rule.

I feel "species" is a verb and not a noun. In the end it is "best guess" whether done by the botanist in the field or the horticulturalist. Herbarium studies are essential, familiarity with the literature and experience cultivating many different individuals, and ideally field work all contribute to a sort of gestalt impression. Least useful is photographic consensus. A look at Bob Z's site will reveal the problems there: if I have a plant I think is D. ascendens (but actually is D. spatulata) and I go to Bob's site to confirm it. Once there if another grower has made the same error (these mistakes get handed down and passed on and on in a legacy of confusion) and posts *his* equally incorrect photo of D. ascendens and it looks *just* like mine, then I accept the error and pass it on along with the seed. This is especially true for the less common species. This has happened to me more than once.

Add to the mud stew the possibility of cross fertilization within collections and things get really complex. I sent out D. dielsiana seed, and when the recipients showed me what grew from the seed I distributed I was aghast to find it was nothing like the parent plant, and I did not make any mistakes when I harvested it! Obviously there has been unexpected fertilization and the result was a hybrid. I can always tell a hybrid from the depth of the marks in the brick wall where I bang my head.
 
Thank you very much Tamlin. That was a good explination. I realize they all do not look alike, but the three I mentioned, D. tokaiensis, d. intermedia and d. capillaris all look alike to me except for variation of color. I know the Adelea looks different and as well as others. I was just curious as to how to tell the ones that look similar apart like the three I mentioned. Your explination was great. I stumbled a little on some of the terminology, but got the gist of it.
Thanks for letting me know that D. Tokaiensis is a hybrid. I know when an orchid is listed as a hybrid it either with the two parents name or part after the genus is capitalized. When I got Tokaiensis it wasn't capitolized so I thought it was a species. And the more I look at it the more I think it looks like cappilaris and intermedia except intermedia is not as red as the other two in my GH. So the flower plays a role in IDing the plant. That is understandable.

I am still not sure what a peduncle, stipules, and hibernacula are.

I guess I just need more experience with them. I remember when I was first getting into orchids it was a little confusing too. Thanks again.
 
Well it's time for a terminology lesson then.

Hibernacula are winter resting buds made by temperate Drosera species like D. rotundifolia and D. intermedia.

Peduncle is the flower scape including the flower buds and the small modified leaves that surround them known as "sepals"

Sepals have specific shapes too, hairs, and the presence or absence of glands - all important considerations.

Stipules are the white hairs rising out of the center of the plant.  They can be either adnate (connected) to the petiole or free from it. They may be fused or variaby divided at the ends.

The petiole is the long part of the leaf that has no traps on it.  It may be hirsute (hairy) or glaborous (smooth). The cross section of the petiole is also good.  The petiole blends into the lamina (the trap bearing portion of the leaf, and the degree of tapering, number of hairs, and association with the stipules (as above) are important.

The lamina as mentioned are the trap bearing portion of the leaf.  The shape (oviod, round, truncate, spatulate) and the placement and orientation of the motile hairs, and the shape of the glands at the end of them are diagnostic. The presence or absence of hairs on the underside of the lamina are also considered.

LOL, to me seeing D. intermedia and D. spatulata x D. rotundifolia (= D. tokaiensis either form of nomenclature is correct) is like looking at a caucasian and an Oriental!  No doubt you have orchids that would look identical to me and you'd think I was blind, hahaha!

I have been fortunate to have been helped by some very good taxonomists and field workers who took the time to send me the publications I needed for my study of this genus.   Dr. Robert Gibson (well, almost there), Dr. Schlauer, Phill Mann have all been very generous.  These papers are often hard to procure, and sometimes in other languages.  I will be happy to fill any specific requests for literature as regards this genus if I have it.  I find the line drawings in the Keys to be better than photo's since they focus keenly on the essentials.

Thank you for your interest in Drosera systamatics, a subject formerly near and dear to me.  These days, I couldn't care less as to what they are named.  I care only for their beauty as individuals and still find them the most beautiful of all CP's.
 
BTW: D. tokaiensis *is* a species, although a recently evolved one. There was a very good discussion of the subject on the CP Listserve from back in the 80's or early 90's. Search the archive and read all about the debate....it was quite interesting.
 
Ok Tamlin tell me about this list server. I don't know about it. I find it interesting on how the taxonomists destinguis different plants apart. Even with the orchids, but no one was ever really interested in explaining to me how they came about distinguishing some species. I always thought the flower, but then someone said morphology, but then never explained. So this is very interesting and THANK YOU so much for explaining it to me. After I get done with my nursing school I plan on taking some botiny so I can learn taxonomy a little better.

Also Tamlin. Can you give me a list of the BIG dews? Or should I just give the ones I have time since they were started from seed. My capillaris are flowering so I assume they are about full grown. They are a little bigger than a quarter. Thanks again!
 
Oh Tamlin I really need to read the debate on the D. tokaiensis. Before asking these questions, but I am going to ask anyways.  Was it a natural hybrid? I am still not certain on what makes a species a species since everything evolved from one individual plant.  Like all dogs evolved from the first two dogs.  

I know that a species has two sets of alleles and they are both the same in a species, but when you start hybridizing the alleles no longer are the same since you get one allele from one parent and the other allele from the other parent, and if they are different species then they're are two different alleles resulting in the different plant.  Maybe I am not using the proper terminology.  I just got out of bio 2 and I will be damed that after a couple of months not using it, I forgot a lot of it.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (JB_OrchidGuy @ June 19 2006,4:34)]I am still not sure what a peduncle, stipules, and hibernacula are.
There are a few botanical dictionaries on the web that can be very helpful when you run across terms you have not seen.

Here's one Although it seems quite slow...
 
No, it's I that thank you...knowledge is empty unless shared. Not too many out there with any jazz for taxonomy, so it's a pleasure to help.

Here is the link you requested. I found it by typing "CPN Listserve Archive" in Google, which brought the page up as #1. Selecting this brings you here:

http://www.carnivorousplants.org/cplist....tht=Mar

Use the dictionary link for any unfamiliar words/terminology. There are many terms in botany, and you don't have to go to school to learn them, just go for it! As you use these terms they will become familiar and easy. You don't need a diploma to master a subject you love, just to make $$ from it, lol.

As to what makes a species, and the genetic aspects I fear you have the wrong guy to help there. There are many considerations involving not only genetics but also geographic details of isolation and radiation (i.e. how the plants spread).
Read Dr. Schlauer's comments on the issue of hybrids, and you will get some ideas. Dr. Schlauer is the ultimate academic taxonomist and the elected guru of CP.

The Listserve was a wonderful educational tool back when Dr. S. was active in posting to it. It is an E newsletter delivered @ daily to your email. This was before there were boards like this. You respond via email, and the reply is sent to all listserve members. I found it cumbersome and not conducive to long conversations since the topic disappears if no one copies it and responds to it. In later years, it became dominated by ugly off topic flame wars since there was no one moderating. It was nasty. I quit going there because of some members who disgusted me with their hatefulness. AFAIK Dr. S. rarely posts anymore. I believe it is still up and running, and you can join by sending a message. Websearch it. I warn you, it was never overly friendly to newbies....dominated by the hoity toity eggheads IMO. Most people were afraid to say ANYTHING for fear of a load of poo being dumped. Not fun.

But the days of glory were indeed glorious. I learned so much there. Probably the closest thing there is to CP School, lol.

BIG dews? Vertical or horizontal? Verticle it would probably be D. gigantea, right Sean? The Aussie tuberous species climb and weave through the brush, so I guess they win. More commonly, D. binata would fit the bill. D. filiformis v. tracyi and D. filiformis v. filiformis are very showy.

For rosetted dews, D. venusta, D. slackii, D. aliciae, and again any number of tuberous rosetted plants. D. adelae can get pretty big. D. regia is a monster well grown. Some D. cuneifolia are bigger than your palm. D. capensis is no bitty thing. D. schizandra can get leaves as big as your palm (at least in Queensland). They get huge if well grown.

Big is relative. The biggest pygmy I grew was D. pulchella x D. ericksoniae.

D. capillaris is a very variable species, depending on where they're from. Usually quarter sized on the smaller end to as big around as a Coke can. Some are even upright, like D. intermedia. Neither size or color are of much use in distinguishing Drosera species.
 
  • #10
what makes a species a species? we say it is thats what
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actually everything bove species or subspecies level is all made up by ppl. its really hard trying to put some of these things together as far as relationships to each other. and there are thousands of different view points on how to do it.

personally, all i care about is how to make what i have grow well.....dont care what its called as long as i like the look, the only time i become concerned about it being correctly identified is when i go to pass on plant material. you think Drosera are fun, try identifying a Utric thats not in bloom, some of those guys a scarily alike without the use of a microscope when not in bloom. and than some such as aureomaculata look nothing like anything else in my collection and i can tell it apart from my other Utrics at 10 feet with no flowers.

taxonomy is fun but i aint anal enough to take it up
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  • #11
Did you just call me what I think you called me?
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Hmmmm, let me write this down in my book of revenge.....Rattler.....6/19....called me an bass pole.  Da noive.

Wait until I am elevated to Modhood....you think it won't happen but eeeeeyoooouuu jest wait bucko.....


I'll get you for this <flex  flex>
 
  • #12
LMAO, ill be waiting but just remember im your source of Phillipsburg sapphires
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im quite serious when i say i am not anal enough to do taxonomy work.............heck i let my calycifida cultivars seed all over and into each others pots
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what makes you think i can sit and do taxonomy work
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  • #13
yes! now i finally know what peltate means!!!!
alex
 
  • #14
peltate: shield shaped.

Rattler ya said you weren't anal enough, and that means I am since I am reputed to know a little about the Sundews. Both too little and too much to be happy and enjoy growing them I think. I'm into Sarracenia and Utricularia and VFT"S nowdays. I'll leave the Drosera to those who know more and less than I do, and who can appreciate them for nonacademic reasons. I took it to the limit.

Taxonomy is largly a matter of learning the language. I remember once when I was discussing some sp. of Drosera with Dr. Schlauer I used spindle shaped in reference to a S. Af. species and he sort of hollered at me about it. I used the wrong term for the shape, and there are no real spindle shaped seeds from there (pretty sure, pretty sure...). So you need to be proper and correct, but you already can recognize a species from 10 feet away. How do you do that, when most folk couldn't even name the genus? You did it by learning the morphological clues the plant has....rotund lollons vs filiform, eliptical, acuminate. You learned from a trusted expert that this was indeed U. aueromaculata, and you internalized the info. If you were to see it in another collection, you would know it. That is just how taxonomy works, except the experts are the authors of the Protolouge. We learn from what they show us. Taxonomy isn't really all that difficult, and it can be as fun as doing a xword puzzle.

Send me sapphires and you can call me anything you like amigo. Hee hee.

But I am still gonna getcha.
 
  • #15
Tamlin I am going to take your word for it that you can spot a species 10 feet away, but I don't know many folks who can. I mean hell take orchids for instance since I know a little more about them, but you take a cattleya species and set it next to a cattelya primary hybred between two catt species and if they were not in flower you could absolutely not tell them apart unless they were your plants and you knew what they were to begin with. Even in flower unless you knew that was a species or not it could be hard to tell if it was a species or hybred. I have about 6 different White catts with yellow in the lips and some are named and some are NoID that I have flowered out. Now the flower sizes are different, but you still couldn;t tell one from the other and properly identify it. I tried to get one IDed on the orchid source and someone mentioned it could be this blah blah hybred. As it turned out I had that hybred he mentioned and it recently had flowered. Needless to say it wasn't a match. So I am still a little confused, but thank again for sharing. After Ihave had some sleep I will reread what has been posted so far and get some questions for you. I am truely interested in how to ID a species as being this that and the other. Just to satisfy my own curiosity.

The reasdon I want to take the botiny clas is because I believe it wil help me when I start my orchid nursery. I also want to take some greenhouse management classes as well. Maybe a little business. Things to help reash the ultimate goal of having a Greenhouse that will support my lifestly and maybe elivate it. That way I can do what I love for my source of income and live the easy life. They say things are so much easier when your doing something you love to do that pays the bills and lets you live comfortably.
 
  • #16
Good luck with your future business, and your BotAny classes. Keep me in mind when you have a ton of spare Cats, lol. I have one plant and it does well for me as a houseplant so of course I want more! The flowers smell like coppertone suntan lotion. I found it on the compost heap behind the college greenhouse one October and I stole it, har har. I never grew an orchid and didn't even know it was one until it flowered and blew my mind. I wouldn't even try to ID it beyond genus level!

Also, while I have your ear, are there any good terrarium orchid subjects you can recommend? I would like to find something that isn't too difficult or fussy, and not large growing, preferabdly a species that would grow in a sphagnum mix?
 
  • #17
Tamlin, their are TONS of species orchids that are small-tiny that do great in terrariums. some are actually small enough that if arranged properly you could have a collection of 20-30 in a 10 gallon tank, granted it gets expensive when yah start looking for that many species.............let me check what i have, i might have some small stuff in need of division.

as for Catt's you probably didnt see my pride and joy since you were offline all winter...........Bruce hates it but its great i swear. he says im way to proud of it
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  • #18
Tamlin if your growing a Catt as a houseplant and getting it to flower its more than likely a hybred.  Many primary hybreds and species are fussy about flowering in house light levels.  They have been hybredizing them to take less light and easier to flower.  I have a mini Den I could possibly take a small devision from in your interested Tamlin.  I also have some Catts I could spare too.  They are NoID plants so I need to clear them out anyways.  Pm me if interested.

Oh Tamlin I also alost forgot get yourself a Neofinetia I;m pretty sure I spelled it correct.  Its the sameri orchid and they are small and smell great and do well in straight Sphag.  I have a falcata and there are may different trpes too.  They are also called the wind orchid.

I also talked to some other folks about some catts for trade, but I forgot who you were. So if you read this PM me too.
 
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