Happy ZombieJesus Day!

[RL7836]

Just my humble opinion.... religion, politics, lifestyle, personal beliefs.... none of which should be the subject of jokes on "our" forum.

+1

When I saw this thread, I knew that it wasn't going to end well - but I didn't know how to say anything without making things worse. I'm not religious but know that if you poke a group of people with a sharp stick, many will not like it. If you respect those individuals ... why go there?

But in the real word I think religion should be able to be criticized as anything else is.

Our 'Free Speech' guarantees the ability to do this, but should you want to exercise that right, this is not the venue - very much not conducive to maintaining the atmosphere we appreciate.

 

[zlookup]

I try avoid these type of threads when they get into these type of debates, but...

The problem with trying to rationalize with analogies to other 'similar' scenarios is a difficult one as it really doesn't lend itself to such analogies well. It is difficult, if not impossible to compare things of this nature. Apples and oranges I say. Personally, I'm not offended, but heck, who are we to dictate how others feel or perceive things.

Now to contradict myself and provide a bit of an analogies scenario anyway. Growing up, I had friends who would on occasion use what many would consider very derogatory terms towards Asians. In context, I knew it to be in jest, and really took no offense to it in the slightest. That said, strangers or acquaintances saying the same thing to me would likely not have been perceived the same way by me. Just put into perspective that the audience of the forum is larger than just the more 'active' members and that audience has a right to their opinions and feelings. No one really has a right to dictate how another should feel about the subject matter.

As for religion being open to criticism like everything else, absolutely, but this does not apply to the scenario at hand. There has to be substance to the criticism and a valid argument must exist. Jokes are not a valid criticism. Jokes are simply meant to amuse and or offend on occasion but have no place in a serious debate of religion, politics or the like.

The internet is certainly not a place for censorship so I would agree that if someone truly believes in Jesus being a zombie, than by all means, they should have the right to say so, but lets not make this out to be more than what it is, a joke and not so much a belief. There are plenty of places on the internet to discuss zombie Jesus' I'm sure, though I don't believe the intent of this forum was ever for that. If it was meant to be a lighthearted good willed gesture, than I say have a mod change the title and move on. To tell people to ignore the thread doesn't change the fact that they can still see it and be offended by the title, in spite of what else may be in the thread.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Crofthulhu]

Telling someone you've just offended to stop being offended is like apologizing by saying "I'm sorry you think I'm a jerk."

I don't really feel that's the case here... what do users expect entering a thread with this title? Obviously if you're easily offended or a believer of Jesus, you're going to be offended. My point is, being offended is pointless. There are other beliefs in the world beside yours, you should expect threads like this. And it's unfair for people to come in this thread and complain about it, as if it shouldn't be allowed?

 

[Exo]

If I remember correctly....it's against forum rules to post offensive material in the first place...and if enough peeps complain about it..it's pretty much offensive.

 

[Crofthulhu]

I try avoid these type of threads when they get into these type of debates, but...

The problem with trying to rationalize with analogies to other 'similar' scenarios is a difficult one as it really doesn't lend itself to such analogies well. It is difficult, if not impossible to compare things of this nature. Apples and oranges I say. Personally, I'm not offended, but heck, who are we to dictate how others feel or perceive things.

Now to contradict myself and provide a bit of an analogies scenario anyway. Growing up, I had friends who would on occasion use what many would consider very derogatory terms towards Asians. In context, I knew it to be in jest, and really took no offense to it in the slightest. That said, strangers or acquaintances saying the same thing to me would likely not have been perceived the same way by me. Just put into perspective that the audience of the forum is larger than just the more 'active' members and that audience has a right to their opinions and feelings. No one really has a right to dictate how another should feel about the subject matter.

As for religion being open to criticism like everything else, absolutely, but this does not apply to the scenario at hand. There has to be substance to the criticism and a valid argument must exist. Jokes are not a valid criticism. Jokes are simply meant to amuse and or offend on occasion but have no place in a serious debate of religion, politics or the like.

The internet is certainly not a place for censorship so I would agree that if someone truly believes in Jesus being a zombie, than by all means, they should have the right to say so, but lets not make this out to be more than what it is, a joke and not so much a belief. There are plenty of places on the internet to discuss zombie Jesus' I'm sure, though I don't believe the intent of this forum was ever for that. If it was meant to be a lighthearted good willed gesture, than I say have a mod change the title and move on. To tell people to ignore the thread doesn't change the fact that they can still see it and be offended by the title, in spite of what else may be in the thread.

Just my 2 cents.

Sorry but, racist term is not the same as celebrating Easter in a non religious manner. What we're seeing here is not only a joke, but an expression of belief, or lack thereof. So yes, this is a thread where people are expressing their beliefs. If you disagree, stay away, be strong in your faith and move on.

As human beings we face things we don't believe in everyday. I see people loudly yelling out things I completely disagree with, yet I don't complain to them, tell them they are wrong for believing what they believe, and tell them to stop. Because that's both unfair and wrong.

---------- Post added at 04:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:19 PM ----------

If I remember correctly....it's against forum rules to post offensive material in the first place...and if enough peeps complain about it..it's pretty much offensive.

I see, if that's the rules of the forum then so be it.

I do think that's pretty unfair... seeing as if someone wanted to make a thread about Jesus and Easter, and enough people were offended by it, it could be taken down.

 

[amphirion]

@croft: i believe CONTEXT determines what is acceptable speech and what isnt. in this case, the main purpose of this forum is for carnivorous plant discussions. other topics may be included under the general discussion, but for the most part, because this is a CARNIVOROUS PLANTS discussion, and that all sorts of people from all walks of life come together here, for the purpose of discussing CARNIVOROUS PLANTS, talk about all sorts of subjects if you wish, but be aware that not everyone has the same beliefs/values as yourself.

as Ron mentioned, having a cohesive atmosphere is beneficial in maintaining community here. you want to talk about zombie jesus? there's a forum for that too--- it's just not this one. and i also agree with zlookup about how the internet shouldnt censored, agreed 100% but again, TF is a CARNIVOROUS PLANT forum, and NOT the internet as a whole---again, you want to find a place where your view points on religion, beliefs, jokes of, and values are appreciated? there's a forum for that, just not this one.

 

[Peatmoss]

Yes, I believe that this thread was meant in a light hearted manner, but if people find it offensive, it should be removed. I certainly laughed when I saw it, but if it offends others, I would like for it to be removed just like I would like for a thread I found offensive to be removed.

"Give unto others what you want to be given to you"

~I don't believe my quotation was 100% accurate.~

*Wanders off to read threads that actually have something to do with CP's*

---------- Post added at 05:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:23 PM ----------

Apparently, I type far too slowly...

 

[zlookup]

@croft:

Think you missed the point of my story a bit. It was meant to express that things can be perceived by people in different ways depending on scenario and context and perhaps familiarity with a person. I wasn't making an analogy of racism to the title.

I don't think I was telling anyone they didn't have a right to believe what they wanted. I just didn't like the tone people were taking to defend the thread. Many seemed to suggest people were wrong for feeling insulted and told to lighten up. I fail to see how their right to feel and believe what they believe is any different than your attitude towards the right of the thread to stay up at the moment.

In any case, feel free to believe what ever you like. As I stated, its your right and I'm not here to tell you otherwise.

 

[Crofthulhu]

@croft: i believe CONTEXT determines what is acceptable speech and what isnt. in this case, the main purpose of this forum is for carnivorous plant discussions. other topics may be included under the general discussion, but for the most part, because this is a CARNIVOROUS PLANTS discussion, and that all sorts of people from all walks of life come together here, for the purpose of discussing CARNIVOROUS PLANTS, talk about all sorts of subjects if you wish, but be aware that not everyone has the same beliefs/values as yourself.

as Ron mentioned, having a cohesive atmosphere is beneficial in maintaining community here. you want to talk about zombie jesus? there's a forum for that too--- it's just not this one. and i also agree with zlookup about how the internet shouldnt censored, agreed 100% but again, TF is a CARNIVOROUS PLANT forum, and NOT the internet as a whole---again, you want to find a place where your view points on religion, beliefs, jokes of, and values are appreciated? there's a forum for that, just not this one.

I understand, and agree to a certain extent, and would agree with you completely if a General Discussions forum didn't exist, where it's exact purpose is to be an "Open forum for ANY topics of conversation."

I feel like going into a thread and asking it to be removed because my personal belief is unfair and selfish. This is the internet, it's almost inevitable that you are going to see things you don't agree with or believe in.

I was incredibly offended by the SOPA/PIPA thread. It was full of completely false information, but I didn't express how offended I was. I left the thread and forgot about it.

 

[sss]

I first have to say, I knew posting in here would most likely start a debate, I'm sure that's why other people restrained themselves from posting but people have to know why others would be offended. I am sorry about that.

Yea I agree, religion and such topics shouldn't even be on this forum. So any religious post whether it be a pro religion or anti religion post shouldn't be on here. But in the real word I think religion should be able to be criticized as anything else is.

The literal meaning of zombie is someone brought back from the dead, it isn't necessarily grotesque.

I agree to a point that religion shouldn't be on here. If somebody posts a thread discussing their religious beliefs, then yes that shouldn't be here. If somebody posts a thread saying Merry Christmas/Happy Hanukkah/happy Quanza/(insert religious holiday here), I feel that's fine. But if somebody posts some "witty pun about meaning of religious holiday", then that definitely doesn't belong here.

I understand why people would be offended, but they shouldn't be at all. Don't come into the thread if it offends you, stay away from it. If seeing the words "Zombie Jesus" offends you, you really have no place being on the internet. Be strong in your faith and be about your way instead of complaining about words typed onto a screen.

People have the right to call Jesus a zombie if they wish, if that's their belief, then so be it. I don't see how it's any fair to say your belief in Christ is any more important than anyone else's beliefs. Are you going to tell a Muslim or a Buddhist you're offended that they celebrate something else besides the rise of Jesus on Easter? Is that fair to ask them not to celebrate Easter in their own way?

Once again a failure of logic. America has free speech, and people can start screaming on the streets vulgar things about religion, does that mean religious people don't belong in America? These forums are supposed to be friendly forums for carnivorous plant hobbyists, nobody should have to be worried about their religious views being joked about.

Telling someone you've just offended to stop being offended is like apologizing by saying "I'm sorry you think I'm a jerk."

+1

As for religion being open to criticism like everything else, absolutely, but this does not apply to the scenario at hand. There has to be substance to the criticism and a valid argument must exist. Jokes are not a valid criticism. Jokes are simply meant to amuse and or offend on occasion but have no place in a serious debate of religion, politics or the like.

This is absolutely true. You cannot compare a joke to proper constructive criticism.

I don't really feel that's the case here... what do users expect entering a thread with this title? Obviously if you're easily offended or a believer of Jesus, you're going to be offended. My point is, being offended is pointless. There are other beliefs in the world beside yours, you should expect threads like this. And it's unfair for people to come in this thread and complain about it, as if it shouldn't be allowed?

It's not a matter of not viewing the thread, because the potentially offensive material is in the title.

 

[Crofthulhu]

@croft:

Think you missed the point of my story a bit. It was meant to express that things can be perceived by people in different ways depending on scenario and context and perhaps familiarity with a person. I wasn't making an analogy of racism to the title.

I don't think I was telling anyone they didn't have a right to believe what they wanted. I just didn't like the tone people were taking to defend the thread. Many seemed to suggest people were wrong for feeling insulted and told to lighten up. I fail to see how their right to feel and believe what they believe is any different than your attitude towards the right of the thread to stay up at the moment.

In any case, feel free to believe what ever you like. As I stated, its your right and I'm not here to tell you otherwise.

Well, no matter who says a racist term, friend or not, I'm going to think it's offensive and racist. So I guess I missed the point.

I just feel like when someone makes fun of what I believe, it only makes my belief stronger, and I laugh at those who laugh at me. Because it iis unfair to ask people to stop. Because, really, you are asking someone to stop expressing their belief because yours.

---------- Post added at 04:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:36 PM ----------

But if somebody posts some "witty pun about meaning of religious holiday", then that definitely doesn't belong here.

So people who take religion light heartedly don't belong here? So people who don't believe in God don't belong here? Because those are likely the type to do that.

Once again a failure of logic. America has free speech, and people can start screaming on the streets vulgar things about religion, does that mean religious people don't belong in America?

Yes, you're right, they can. Just like people can post anything they want about religion on the internet. We don't ask them to stop, why? Because it's rude and unfair to ask people to stop doing something simply because you don't like it; no matter how offensive it is to your religion (which is specific to you).

ehh.. I'm done playing devils advocate. I'm just trying to get people to see how it can be unfair to ask something to be taken down simply because you don't like it. If that's the case, then all religious posts should be removed, you might offend someone.

 

[Est]

Happy Easter everyone, no matter how you chose to celebrate it. Thread closed for the sanity of the whole.

However, I will remind all of our good readers that the rules here are to be nice. Free speech doesn't come in to play here. Many of us live in countries where free speech is protected, but this server is not any of those countries. We invite all to share their opinions in a civil manner. However, if those opinions (be they humorous, genuine, or anything between) are likely to cause disruption to the functioning of this community or its general well being, then we not only kindly ask but require that you not post them here. You agreed to the rules when you joined, and you agree to adhere to them every time you post here.