Giant Cephalotus follicularis "myth or reality"

[agustinfranco]

Dear Gentlemen:

It is a pleasure to be part of this forum. I would like to start by asking about anybody's experience growing Cephalotus follicularis giant forms. I mean giant forms, because there are currently two available. One is the hummer's giant ( a cultivar name approved by ICPS and the other is more obscure, but nevertheless belongs to another variety of the giant Cephalotus brought to Germany in the early 80's.
I am doing a comparison study between the two forms. Luckily I have contacted two experts in the field who are willing to help me.

Any input regarding this topic will be appreciated

Agustin

 

[PlantAKiss]

Hi Agustin

I wanted to welcome you to the forums.

Good to have you aboard. I'm sorry I can't help you with your question...I just have a little baby ceph so I am a beginner with these. But hopefully someone here can provide some information for you.

Happy growing!

"Gentleman" Suzanne

 

[agustinfranco]

Sorry Suzanne: I forgot to mention the word "Ladies" as well.

Agustin Franco

 

[cephalotus88]

I have some thaught about "Hummer's Giant". I have (had..,intense heat kinda killed the crown, hoping roots will pop up another plant; killed alot more plants in my collection also) a rather decent sized cephalotus I acquired 3 years ago. I had pitchers around 1inch large, yet hasn't flowered yet. I have seen "Hummer's Giant" sending up stalks, with about the same size pitchers, or just barely alittle larger.

As for giants, I have yet to see one

Hope this helps my man-Zach

 

[agustinfranco]

Message for Zach:

Well Zach, just putting the plant and hoping to be giant is not the answer to my query. In some cases extra care is needed such as growing under special lights. etc. and etc.

You would like to see a hummer's giant?. Well , I'll send you a picture from Jeff Mathesson

Agustin Franco

 

[lil_flytrap_boy]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (agustinfranco @ April 13 2003,04:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You would like to see a hummer's giant?. Well , I'll send you a picture from Jeff Mathesson

[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Oooohh! Could you send me one too please? It would be much appreciated!

 

[agustinfranco]

Dear lil fly trap boy:

On second thought, I am not allowed to do so, because these are not my pictures. I will have to ask the rightful owner if he lets me do so. sorry about that. Hopefully, I will show you my plants once I get a digital camera. so you can keep anything you like.

If you want interesting pictures about cp's there are a couple of sites you can look at. Let me know if you want to see them.

Agustin Franco

 

[The Griffin]

I have both, and my giant has not reached the size of some of my "normal" cephs(I have two inch pitchers easily-nice and maroon, too).

regards,

Joe

 

[monkeyman]

You may want to ask Wistuba, from the Nepenthes Nursery. He carries these plants in his stock and might know about any special requirements.


Mike

P.S. I just ordered on of these, to trade to someone else.

 

[agustinfranco]

Joe:

Don't expect your giants to reach full size in matter of months, it may take 3 years to reach full size. Furthermore, the variety sold by Wistuba is a slow grower, and if you expose your plant to too much light, the pitchers will never reach full size either. A clue is that if the pitcher is changing colour they are receiving too much light to get any bigger.

Giant cephs ah??. They do exist but they need special treatment: Low light, high humidity, and 30-40% Sun

This is a picture from Mr. Jeno Kapitany, Paradisia Nurseries, Victoria Australia. Good Ceph grower, I must say.

 

[PlantAKiss]

That is amazing...just beautiful! The time would be well worth the wait to get something that large and beautiful.

Thanks for sharing the picture.

Suzanne

 

[Spectabilis73]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (http://www.carnivorousplantsuk.co.uk/images/Cephs/ceph.pict.jpg @ April 13 2003,04:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
Cephalotus Giant Form

The Cephalotus is grown in a large bucket and as a span of nearly 12 inches across and every pitcher measures 3 inches in height. The plant is grown by Julie Jones from the UK.
Cephalotus Giant Form

[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Found this pic on google

 

[agustinfranco]

Nice Picture Spectabilis. I did speak to Julie Jones about 2 months ago and I have one that is next to a large size egg. That one is going to the article I am writing as well. I did have permission to publish it.

Agustin Franco

 

[rapture]

I hope every ceph. grower here knows that the pitchers only reach full size under low light. A good method is to let the pitchers develop under low light conditions, then put in more intense light so the pitchers can color up. I will soon be getting a giant form from Wistuba myself.

 

[D muscipula]

This is very interesting. So, which of the two "giant" forms are the two photos that have been posted so far? I was also wondering what kind of lighting is best to get the plant to maximum size. Say, i want it to fill the pot. In that case, is low or bright lighting better? It often grows in full sun in the wild. Does anyone know why low light leads to larger pitchers?

Cheers

 

[agustinfranco]

Hi all:

The picture I posted some time ago does not belong to either giant form. It is a giant ceph, as far as I can tell, but it is neither the hummer's giant nor the giant form introduced to Germany almost 20 years ago. The argument is that some types of cephs can reach large sizes, because they have the predisposition to do so. It is the matter of discriminating which is which. I am sure, in nature there must be more than the two characterized so far. However, the ability to know which ones will turn out giants and which ones won't regardless of how excellent the growing conditions are remains to be deciphered.

Low light or High lights?. Would it make a difference if you plot a graph versus time exposure?. I guess most cephs need certain amount of light regardless of how strong or weak your light bulb is. If they are not getting enough, they will not turn red or purple, but they will have relative big pitchers. It is a thing you will have to work out yourself. However, they need the light for photosynthesis (making their own food) if you give them too much light, why would they need to eat insects though?. Maybe that is why the pitchers don't grow to full size under these conditions. On one hand, If you give them  barely enough light, they will have to develop bigger pitchers to trap insects in order to compensate for the lack of light!!.  In other words, the plant is adjusting while switching a source of nourishment for another!!. Anyway, this is just an tentative explanation for what many cp growers have confirmed so far.

I hope i have answered most of your questions!!!!!

Agustin Franco

 

[D muscipula]

Thanks for the answer. I'm not sure i agree with the explanation, though. CPs don't get caloric nutrition from their prey, or at least not that i'm aware of. That's why a lot don't even bother to produce the digestive juices themselves. What they do get is mineral nutrition: probably primarily nitrogen compounds. In fact, many of the plants that evolved carnivory live where they have excess sunlight (to make all the sugar they want from the CO2 in the air), and they use their excess sugar as bait to attract the other dietary needs (bugs), which have the much more limited protein (nitrogen), phosphorous, and potassium.

It's interesting that there seem to be so many "giant" cephalotus. I'm inclined to agree that there are probabably a lot of wild populations with some amount of the "giant" phenotype.

Boy, sure would be nice if my little ceph would mutate that gene. It's still tiny after more than a year...

Cheers

 

[agustinfranco]

Dear D. muscipula:

While your explanation sheds some truth on how carnivory evolves, one can't speak in general terms. One can't say that all the proteins are derived from the prey. As you may already know, there are several carnivorous plants that can survive wihtout eating insects whatsoever, then where did these plants get their nutrients from? roots? maybe or photosynthesis. We can't talk on absolute terms, everything in life is relative.

Furthermore, Cephalotus loves to live among the bushes of Southwestern Australia. It is hardly found by themselves, when they do, they turn purple or red and their pitchers get small. If Carnivorous plants rely solely on preys to survive, they would be all dead by now.

Agustin Franco

 

[D muscipula]

CPs make their own proteins, just like all other macroscopic lifeforms. Those that don't have digestive proteins (enzymes) are benefitted by the bacteria that live in their pitchers and break down prey, but they use their own synthesized proteins for other processes. What they do get from bugs is nitrogen, which is a major component in protein. All i was saying is that CPs are all autotrophs- they capture energy (sunlight) and use it to make their own tissues, rather than relying on consuming other organisms for their energy source like we do. Their carnivory is for a different reason - they grow in soils where nutrients are very poor, and thus they try to get their nitrogen and other essential nutrients from insects.

Legumes like beans have a different approach to a similar problem - they have "nitrogen fixing" bacteria living in the roots that take nitrogen from the air and make it into a usable form.

In either case, the plant makes its own protein, but it gets the nitrogen from other organisms. I don't think carnivorous plants are entirely unable to get nutrients through their roots as normal plants do, which is why some people (Rob Cantley for example) have success using weak fertilizers on certain CPs (nepenthes).

There's apparently a threshold light intensity beyond which cephalotus take a more compact (smaller pitchers) and water-saving form. I would imagine from what you said that's why they color and form smaller pitchers in extreme light conditions. It makes more sense to me than looking at it the other way (that the pitchers get bigger in the shade). I guess that's probably the answer to my question, but i still wonder if the plant isn't faster growing (more robust) under the high light conditions, even if the pitchers aren't as big. I'd like mine to produce more crowns, so if it will be more robust under high light, i'd give it that.

 

[Tamlin Dawnstar]

There is good research done by Richard Davion in Australia dealing with another aspect of Cephalotus size. Richard noted that the CP in Western Australia and South Africa followed areas of mineral serpentine deposits. Experiments concerning "serpentine responsive" CP's have shown the presence of heavy metal cations in habitat favor the presence of a mycorhizal association between the plants root stock and a form of penicillin like fungi that acts as a nutrient transport system. The fungi provide the plant with nitrogen in exchange for the plants sugars. The results of an experimental fertilizer containing these cations in conjunction with a high cellulose medium produced dramatic (although unconfirmed by me) pitcher formation in terms of size and number. The high cellulose tricks the plant into attempting to produce pitchers to compensate for the low nutrients in the substrate, and the nitrogen for growth is made available to the plant via the mycorhizae. After treating the substrate with the fertilizer the fungi begins to establish and grow. Once visable mycorhizae appear, usually in 20-40 days with temps between 22-28 c (71-82F) the growth process begins to accelerate, and the plant utilizes this "nitrogen draw-down" similar to "ericoidal" mycorhizae. (Note that Clostridium fungi also have the ability to fix atmospheric nitrogen). Nitrogen in peat is largely unavailable to the plant (as lignin and lignoprotein), but the mycorhizae feed the pitchers nitrogen from the humal layer. The reported results stated that three 3 inch pitchers were produced weekly throughout the growing season. The plant from a 2-3 inch root cutting planted in Autumn was mature by the end of the 8 month season.

I do not discount the possibility of genetic factors since these organic beings are variable, but I feel there is more to this than meets the eye, and such research deserves serious consideration.

Also, don't be too quick to remove old pitchers until they have browned, as the plant transports those nutrients from old pitchers. Early pitcher removal also removes these nutrients.