Another nep pricing question

[D muscipula]

I just read the thread on the pricing of N. rajah and found it quite interesting, as i too have been astounded at the range of prices that neps can fetch.  There's a couple that have mystified me, as well.

N. ampullaria is the first one i wanted to get.  I really wanted that plant, but Merilee at CC talked me out of it (probably a good thing) and i got a forgiving ventricosa instead.  Okay, trying to keep a short story short:

I still want an amp, but want a really good amp, since i have limited space - might as well keep just the best, right?  The tricolor and 'Cantley's Red' are stunning plants... but they seem to universally sell for over $100!  I know these aren't rare varieties, because almost every major seller seems to have them.  Why then do they cost so much?  Is this something that is likely to change in the near future (ie are they recently tissue cultured) or are there reasons it won't change.  I'm just wondering, before i go out and buy a "lesser" amp.

Cheers

 

[Phil traper2]

Seeing that you mite be a newbie if you really want to get an amp get a Green kind if you would like I can pm you a greqat place that sells these plants for an affordable price. The N. Amp 'Cantley's Red' because they are very colorful and since you said a lot of major sellers grow them is because they are major sellers and the have a good reputation of growing good nepenthes. And most likely because of the rarety of this plant.

P.S. You probably would like to try a N. Raffalsiana that will introduce you to mostly what amps well need including climate sunlight waering and etc. Hope you have fungrowing these plants.--Phil

 

[Borneo]

Just a note on the red N. ampullaria.  Most of the red N. ampullaria around at the moment is not Cantley's Red.  Cantley's Red is a clone which was introduced to cultivation in the 1980's and has been propagated by cuttings ever since.  It is a specific clone from one parent plant and was described by Adrian Slack in his second book.  It differs from the red N. ampullaria in that the pitchers are more globose and there is more green on the pitchers.  Cantley's Red is actually rare in cultivation.

Red N. ampullaria (and "Tricolor") are the result of selection from several tens of thousands of plants grown from seed in artificial conditions in a nursery.  There are at present nearly 70 different clones of these two varieties with subtle differences between them.

None of the red N. ampullaria forms (or Cantley's red) are in tissue culture and have to be painstakingly propagated from basal cuttings which is why they are never likely to be cheap, since they cannot easily be mass-produced.  Nepenthes are very difficult to put into sterile culture except from seed.

If you think red N. ampullaria is expensive, check out Williams' red!  If you look closely, or see one in the flesh at it you will see that it is different again.

There are at least two other forms of N. ampullaria around.  One is called "Kiss" which is commercially available and the other is "Sunset".   There are a few more yet to be introduced.

N. ampullaria grows strongly if the conditions are correct but it's not tolerant of incorrect conditions.  It's definitely a good idea to practice with a common green or speckled form before spending a lot of money on a rare coloration.

 

[D muscipula]

Wow, the word from the Cantley!  Thanks for the information.  I guess what i really wanted to know is that if i take the plunge for a gorgeous red or tricolor, i would be able to recap my cost a bit in a few years when i propagate from cuttings, and it won't be "cheap" from TC at that point.  Since it apparently won't be devaluing any time soon, i'm going to consider it.  The price will be easier to swallow knowing i will still have a rare and exceptional plant in all the forseeable future.

I'm a bit confused when you say there are about 70 different clones from two varieties.  Surely clones are genetically identical to the parent plant?  I take it you mean from differing specimens within the same variety.  I can only imagine how hard it would be to tell apart 70 variations on a theme...

I don't really consider myself a beginner, although i've only in the last year really started collecting.  For example, i have a copy of Slack's "Insect-eating Plants and how to grow them" that i talked my dad into buying for me when i was a kid, and i've read it through many times, but was often confused due to English nomenclature and modisms, and somewhat intimidated by the difficulty of culture it presented.  The CPs grandma bought me as a kid did ok for a while, but other interests and typical childhood negligence claimed them all.  Now that i have my own place (albeit dorm) i really feel the freedom to collect, and have been for a year or two now.  I think i've learned about as much in that time as anybody can, am an officer (well, webmaster) in a CP society, and am to the point where i want some "Show" plants to go with all the common specimens.  I have the original N ventricosa i got during my visit to Peter's place in May last year, and a bical, alata (H), and coincidentally x"Cantley" (bical x ... i forget) as well, which i've just propagated from cuttings.

So, now that i've been enlightened on the so-called "Cantley's Reds" available out there, may i ask your advice where to get a red clone that you consider exceptional, or perhaps the "real" "Cantley's Red"?  Someone who is aware of 70 clones of the same variety surely has some valuable opinions on what is superior.  I don't really feel that propagating this x"Cantley" is much of an achievement, since it's sort of a weedy cross anyway, and would much rather keep a real showstopper in it's place - if i'm going to take the plunge for a nice amp, it might as well be the best around.

I've been thinking lately that with the explosion in popularity of CPs and the proliferation of mass-produced plants of dubious or unknown heritage, it would be nice to have somebody who really knows make a list of recommended varieties and how to recognize or find them. This would promote both a positive trend in the genetic quality of plants in collections and a better awareness of the importance of pedigree in a clone or variety and not just species. I for one wish i had a better idea of the cultivar or at least locale of my plants, something that i don't always see listed with plants for sale.

Thanks for your comments and help.

Cheers

 

[Joachim Danz]

Hi,

sadly N. ampullaria 'Cantley's red' is a quite slow growing clone. So cuttings or basal offshots are rarely available. With some patience and the correct people (on this list) you might succed. I managed to get a cutting last year:

Joachim

 

[Borneo]

Nice photo Joachim!

I don't know whether or not I am the Cantley where N. x cantleyi is concerned.  I introduced N. gracilis x bicalcarata into cultivation about 20 years ago and then someone named it N. x cantleyi without contacting me first, so I guess I'll never know for sure.  Agreed it is a weedy cross; any F1 hybrid with N. gracilis in it is bound to be.  I would have preferred my name be associated with something else really  

 but never mind.

By the way, there are a lot of people out there with more experience at cultivating Nepenthes than I have.  I've always lived in places where one can just throw a Nep into a pot, ignore it and it'll grow.  Well, more or less.

Funnily enough, Adrian Slack published his book without informing me first that Cantley's red was to be named so.  He asked me after publication if I minded the little "poetic license" as he put it, about the clump of red toadstools (page 144 for anyone who has the book).  Actually I was a bit surprised since I had long been able to recognize difference between toadstools and Nepenthes!  

You're right about the clones.  What I probably should have said is that I isolated about 70 individuals of red and 'Tricolor' N. ampullaria and the plants out there on the market now are clones of those individuals having been taken from cuttings.
Prices of these items will probably fall eventually as people take their own cuttings but they are not likely to plummet any time soon.

About Slack's book.  Adrian was (and may still be) a great horticulturist specializing in CP's, having formerly been a lanscape gardener for many years.  However, his strong point was certainly not cultivating Nepenthes.  Much of the information in his books were provided by others and when I first saw his Nepenthes collection I was rather taken aback.  Not a lot was known about the requirements of even those species that are today considered easy.  The great horticulturists of the Victorian era had long gone and taken their secrets with them.  In the US there were some people that had good skills with these plants (Clyde Bramblett and Cliff Dodd to name but two).  Germany (Johanes Marabini), France and Japan had some noteworthy growers too but probably not England at that time.  Adrian was feeling his way with Nepenthes and his second book in particular has some very good advice.  However, we've come a very long way in our understanding of Nepenthes in the last 15 years and many species which were regarded as extremely difficult in the 1980's are now being grown successfully in a wide variety of places ranging from basements to windowsills.  Adrian's books are entertaining reading (I think so anyway) and he certainly knew a great deal about growing most other CP's.

 

[D muscipula]

Joachim:  Wow, that's a purdy thing!

Aren't other amps fast growers?  That's what i thought i had heard.  It looks like your cutting has grown pretty nicely, anyway.  I gotta get me some friends like yours!

Thanks again for the info.  I kinda wondered how something as mundane as x cantleyi ended up being called such.  And you know how it is with celebrity- everybody knows your name, whether you think it's warranted or not.  Hence, you are the Cantley.

Adrian Slack... there you go, tearing down my childhood hero.  

 I must admit that "Savage Garden" is much  more approachable - less like an ancient book on the arcane arts and more like a gardening book, but also less magical for the same reasons. Perhaps it has to do with the "real" English.

Okay, so now that you've confirmed that you're the "father" of the red amps, which of the children is your favorite?  There must be one clone that's exceptional of those that were picked.  Do you (Borneo Exotics) sell that clone, so you can suggest a reliable source here in the States?

On the off chance that somebody here on PFT is willing to hook me up and make a deal (who really needs two arms and legs, anyways?), i'm not so picky that i'll turn down any of the reds.

Wow, i've learned a lot of behind-the-scenes things today.  Thanks!

Cheers
Nathan

 

[Tim]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Nepenthes are very difficult to put into sterile culture except from seed.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Hey, Rob!

I always like your posts for the gold nuggets. That 7 or 8 osmocote story, the B vitamin urban myth, etc...

But now you've thrown me. I assumed that they were easy to TC, but what exactly do you mean? Are some few easy, and others hard?

PS, the osmocote trick works if any of you are interested.

Regards

 

[Borneo]

Tim,

Unlike many plants, you can't just take a part of the meristem (growing tip) of a Nepenthes, sterilize it and put it into tissue culture.  Nepenthes are so heavily internally contaminated with fungi and bacteria that meristem tissue just isn't clean enough and the cultures nearly always contaminate.  If too little tissue is taken it tends to just form a callus and is difficult to get to grow properly.  Meristem tissue is generally regarded as the tissue of choice for putting plants into in-vitro or sterile culture since it is the growing point of the plant and is usually less contaminated with endogenous organisms.  Lateral buds have been tried and even the tips of tendils.  It can be done but is very difficult and many plants are likely to die in the attempt.  So, for a rare and valuable plant, it is a frightening thing to try!

I believe that all Nepenthes in sterile culture are put in from the seeds, which are reasonably easy to sterilize and then germinate in sterile (or 'in-vitro' ) conditions.  The problem is that with many Nepenthes species, the color varies from individual to individual and you never know what you are going to get.  With slow growing species it takes about 3-4 years from sterilizing the seeds to finding out what color the resulting plant is.  This is why we have put huge effort and very many $$$ into putting as many seeds into sterile culture as possible,  For example with N. rafflesiana we have over 300 individuals in sterile culture and are only now selecting for color and form.  We'll probably end up with less than 20 which are commercially interesting.  We put in over 300 individuals of N. ampullaria too and what did we get - green and speckled!  The red forms came from the excess seed that we sowed in the nurseries.  Just bad luck but it does limit supply and keep it rare which is kinda nice.

There's a long answer to a simple question!

Osmacote:  None of the nursery grown plants I show photos of have ever seen an insect or been foliar fed.  Only Osmacote.  Sure works for us!

Nathan, it has to be the 'Williams' red'.   The pitcher coloration is so much richer than any red N. ampullaria I have ever seen.  I hope one day to post a photo of a carpet of ground pitchers.  Hope no-one mistakes them for toadstools!  

No, surely no-one would be that stupid!

 

[The Griffin]

The osmacote trick? Are you talking about putting six or so pellets on the soil surface and watering from above and that is sufficient to get good growth from a Nepenthes?

Joe

 

[Tim]

So the mass produced plants like xJudithwhatever and ventricosa are started as seed in vitro, then the resulting mass of cells are kept at a certain stage of development where thousands of plants are produced from this one seed?

It would seem there would have to be some sort of genetic continuity.

 

[Tony Paroubek]

Basically that is how it works Tim. Labs are not limited to keeping just a single culture though. They may have produced cultures from more than one seed. In some cases they are all kept seperate and in others they may be one big mixxed up jumble.
Tony

 

[Tim]

Thanks, that clears that up.

 

[PlantAKiss]

Very interesting discussion. A good read.

What IS the osmocote trick?

Suzanne

 

[Tim]

I'll answer that question and Joe's as I've done it for several months now. Through capillary action, you wouldn't need to water from the top for them to give off nutrients, it'll get down there. The other way would be to put them a little under the soil, but away from the plant.

Osmacote and the many new competators have a slow release mechanism, so they are very unlikely to burn the roots of CPs. As Rob has said, in the different mixtures it's possible that say, the Nitrogen is in a different little pellet than, say the Potasium, but if you add six or 8 (in a six inch pot) then statistically you are likely to get at least a little of everything.

Tim

 

[monkeyman]

Rob,

What ever happened to that one Amp with the malformed peristome? Did it start making regular pitchers, or does it still have that wavy peristome?


Mike

 

[Borneo]

You mean the one that was designed to catch small bats?

It was still producing the same deformed pitchers last time I looked. I'm at the highland nursery right now so can't check at the moment. I found another one even stranger with almost no mouth at all. Very odd and I doubt it would ever have survived in the natural habitat (unless it had evolved to catch earth worms)

 

[pthiel]

Rob,

Quick Question -Who is 'Williams' red' named after?

cheers

 

[Borneo]

Pete,

For reasons of romance and passion

Actually, not quite. Diana Williams is my partner and manages the nurseries here. She noticed the unusually rich coloration on the 'Williams' red' when it was still very young. She has a greener thumb and better eye for the plants than I have.

 

[pthiel]

Rob,

Thanks for the answer and a better reason I cannot think of.

cheers