What's new

akai ryu and seeds

seedjar

Let's positive thinking!
Joined
Dec 11, 2004
Messages
4,067
Location
Olympia, Washington
They might be red, but they aren't 'Red Dragon.' A cultivar is a clone of a particular plant, not it's offspring. Just sharing some of the traits of the parent isn't enough to fit the definition. In order to call a plant 'Red Dragon,' it should be genetically identical to the original 'Red Dragon.'
~Joe
 

BigCarnivourKid

It's been one of dem days
Joined
Jun 7, 2002
Messages
3,673
Location
I live in Chaffee County, Colorado, USA
I got the following from the ICPS Registered Cultivar Names:
"Growth habit and flower morphology are typical for this species. The leaf petiole, blade and trap exhibit dark maroon to burgundy coloration. Any green coloration has only been noted around the center of the plant in mid-winter. The entire trap, interior and exterior, exhibits dark burgundy coloration throughout the year. Grown under laboratory conditions, where nutrient levels can be comparatively high, the plants still exhibit partial burgundy coloration in the traps and leaf blade."

Standard: Carniv.Pl.Newslett.25:50 (1996)
Propagation: vegetative reproduction (originally in vitro culture)
Etymology: after red colouration of plants (Japanese: "Red Dragon")


Note that it states that Propagation is by "vegetative reproduction" (leaf cuttings/pullings w/e). So seeds don't work. On the other hand, the rules state that if it looks like it, then it can be called that. That means that it has to match the published description exactly. So it is possible to have a 'Red Dragon' with a different genetic makeup than the original 'Red Dragon'. Without doing a bunch of trials growing the plants under many different conditions, it would be very difficult to claim F2 seeds are the same as the parent. I'd stick to the leaf cuttings myself as then I don't have to worry about a seedling I traded to someone as a 'Red Dragon' changing characteristics under someone elses growing conditions and looking entirely different than would be expected from a true 'Red Dragon' grown under the same conditions.

As seedjar said, you now have a bunch of red VFTs. Lable them as 'Akai Ryu' F2 plants but not as true 'Akai Ryu"
 
Joined
May 18, 2005
Messages
1,250
Location
Milwaukee
You buy the "red dragon" so you can have a red plant right or wrong? Right. So if you grow some seeds and they come out red who cares if you can be right when you call it a "red dragon"? If it's red then it's a "red dragon" to be. Unless it has the short piranha type teeth, then it's a "red piranha" to me. By the way, thanks again Philcula.

Anyways, I sowed some seeds of a red dragon and the seedlings were red so it will be good for you too I'm sure.
 

BigCarnivourKid

It's been one of dem days
Joined
Jun 7, 2002
Messages
3,673
Location
I live in Chaffee County, Colorado, USA
[b said:
Quote[/b] (JMurphy97 @ June 13 2006,12:32)]So if you grow some seeds and they come out red who cares if you can be right when you call it a "red dragon".
'Akai Ryu" is a registered cultivar. Do the plants match the cultivar description? If so no problem. If not then you'd be guilty of fraud if you gave or sold them as 'Red Dragon'.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]If it's red then it's a "red dragon" to be. Unless it has the short piranha type teeth, then it's a "red piranha" to me. By the way, thanks again Philcula.
The purpose of registering a cultivar is to establish a standard against which other similar plants can be compared and reduce confusion as to what a given cultivar looks like. Ignoring the standard and naming a plant what you want just adds to the confusion and is irresponsible.

Why is it so important to have a 'Red Dragon'? Why is it that we feel the need to "stretch the truth" and claim we have something we don't. This is a part of human nature that frustrates me and irratates the beejeezus out of me because it is so pointless.
 
Joined
May 18, 2005
Messages
1,250
Location
Milwaukee
What is the cultivar description of a red dragon? Red leaves and traps? No green? How can it not match then? I'm not really gonna get into it. My one plant outside is a "Red Piranha" and the other one is a "Red Dragon" or "Akai Ryu".
 

BigCarnivourKid

It's been one of dem days
Joined
Jun 7, 2002
Messages
3,673
Location
I live in Chaffee County, Colorado, USA
This is an excerpt of my post from yesterday. It has the desrcription and a link to the site were the description is at.

[b said:
Quote[/b] (BigCarnivourKid @ June 12 2006,11:10)]I got the following from the ICPS Registered Cultivar Names:
"Growth habit and flower morphology are typical for this species. The leaf petiole, blade and trap exhibit dark maroon to burgundy coloration. Any green coloration has only been noted around the center of the plant in mid-winter. The entire trap, interior and exterior, exhibits dark burgundy coloration throughout the year. Grown under laboratory conditions, where nutrient levels can be comparatively high, the plants still exhibit partial burgundy coloration in the traps and leaf blade."

Standard: Carniv.Pl.Newslett.25:50 (1996)
Propagation: vegetative reproduction (originally in vitro culture)
Etymology: after red colouration of plants (Japanese: "Red Dragon")

Guys if it was as easy as growing them from seed, then why would they have stated "vegetative reproduction (originally in vitro culture)". And, if the 'Akai Ryu' characteristics were carried through to the seeds 100% of the time, don't you think they would have used them instead for their in vitro propagation?
 
Joined
Feb 5, 2002
Messages
1,724
Location
Southern California
People have a need to feel special. Mislabelling plants is an easy way to satisfy this need. Giving their common plant a cultivar name will also make someone feel special.
 
Joined
Nov 13, 2005
Messages
18
Location
Portugal
my question came from this situation , I have to much seeds , so I'm thinking on give them to other people.
They came from selfed akai ryu what should I call them ? dionaea typical seeds ?
And when they grow red what explanation do I give to those people ?
 
Joined
Dec 2, 2002
Messages
1,231
Location
Arcata, California
[b said:
Quote[/b] (cp_produtos @ June 14 2006,8:55)]my question came from this situation , I have to much seeds , so I'm thinking on give them to other people.
They came from selfed akai ryu what should I call them ? dionaea typical seeds ?
And when they grow red what explanation do I give to those people ?
Be honest and tell them exactly what they are:
'Red Dragon' x 'Red Dragon' or 'Red Dragon' selfed.

The description of 'Red Dragon' was published in the June 1996 issue of CPN, which can be found here:
http://www.carnivorousplants.org/cpn/Species/v25n2p50.html

Note that the description states:
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Twenty (20) viable seeds were collected and of these, seven clones were established in issue culture. Of the seven clones grown in vitro, one showed enhanced red coloration and vigor and upon subsequent planting out into soil, immediately developed an astonishing deep burgundy coloration in the leaf blade and trap. This clone was also far superior to any of the parents in terms of growth rate and vigor.

So, an important characteristic of the true 'Red Dragon' clone is:
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]This clone was also far superior to any of the parents in terms of growth rate and vigor.
All of the selfed seedlings may be all red, but they may not retain the size and vigor of the original parent.

Many of the plants being circulated as 'Red Dragon' are perhaps red seedlings of various selfings or other breedings. That is why there are numerous complaints that "my 'Red Dragon' is nothing special". This is likely to be correct, because those plants are not the true 'Red Dragon' clone.

I have a very small all red plant that I received in 1999 as a 'Red Dragon' for which I have applied for the cultivar 'Petite Dragon'.
http://www.humboldt.edu/~rrz7001/zphotos/VFTPetiteDragon.html
 
Joined
Nov 13, 2005
Messages
18
Location
Portugal
many times i visited the ICPS site , but today I saw this :

DionaeaRedDrag.jpg


with this text:

"Dionaea muscipula all red seedling. This 4 month old plant is 7 mm across. If all goes well, in 4 years it will be 7 cm across."

this text is in the germination guide , any comments...
 
Joined
Dec 2, 2002
Messages
1,231
Location
Arcata, California
The text simply states that it is an "all red seedling". That is good, because the "all red" determination was made after observing the seedling. The same batch of seed may have produced many typical-looking plants.

The text did not say it was a Red Dragon or even a Red Dragon seedling.

The only point that I would criticize is the filename of the image:
DionaeaRedDrag.jpg
If indeed the photo is of a Red Dragon seedling, and not a clone of Red Dragon, that should be made clear.
 
Joined
Sep 25, 2001
Messages
2,005
Location
United Kingdom
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]What is the cultivar description of a red dragon? Red leaves and traps? No green? How can it not match then? I'm not really gonna get into it.

Only under ideal condition does Red Dragon look completely red, other times having clear green margins. There are other clones that look indifferential from Red Dragon at various times throughout the year. Someone with say a Royal Red and Green Dragon would be miffed if they bought or traded a Red Dragon with someone, but it turned out to be something they already had as the buyer had called it Red Dragon just because it was a red VFT.
 

BigCarnivourKid

It's been one of dem days
Joined
Jun 7, 2002
Messages
3,673
Location
I live in Chaffee County, Colorado, USA
[b said:
Quote[/b] (JustLikeAPill @ Sep. 01 2006,8:13)]if the DNA is not the same, then it's not Red Dragon. it's really that simple.
Sounds good on paper but DNA fingerprinting is exspensive. Not something the common Joe could afford to do on the plants in his collection to verify their authenticity. Not that it woould do them much good in this case as there has not (to my knowledge) been a DNA fingerprint done of D. muscipula 'Red Dragon'. So you'd have nothing to compare results to. The second twist to this is that according to the ICPS, if it matches the description of the 'type' plant then it can be called that. If it looks like a duck, waddles like a duck, and quacks like a duck then it's a duck.
 
Top